To shake or not to shake

[Rob]

Another question you might add to the poll: would you shake hands with someone if you were in the throes of a bad cold?

Tara, oh yeah I definitely am going to put something like that in the poll. It's at the heart of the matter I feel.

Noah I didn't mean to imply you were being dismissive of the subject matter. I was genuinely curious if the idea that handshakes are important to other people colored your thoughts on the overall subject matter since you are coming at it from the perspective that handshakes are not important to you.

I mean the dynamic is pretty simple. If you take four people... two of them consider handshakes important and two do not you only have a 1 in 3 chance of not offending someone under those circumstances.

If A = You

X = Someone who doesn't care about handshakes

Y= Someone who does care about handshakes

then you end up with

A + X = No big deal

A + Y = Offended

A + Y = Offended

If you want to add a further dimension by submitting a secondary characteristic that of the people who consider handshakes important only half will be offended if you explain you are sick or don't want tog et sick then it works out like this:

A = You

X = Someone who doesn't care about handshakes

Y1 = Someone who does care about handshakes

Y2 = Someone who does care about handshakes but will not be offended if you explain you are sick are don't want to get sick.

Then:

A + X = No big deal

A + Y1 = Offended

A + Y2 = No big deal

My point is simply this... as long as there are people to whom handshakes are important and will be offended if you refuse them a handshake regardless of the reason there does not seem to be a way to NOT shake hands without offending someone.

So the things you have to ask yourself are "do I consider this fact that as long as there are people who consider handshaking important enough that some people will be offended if I refuse to shake hands worth the risk to my webcomic venture by refusing to shake hands anyway?"

You can justify it any way you want.

"I don't want to get sick"
"I don't want you to get sick"
"You are filthy and I don't want to touch you"
"Handshaking isn't an important social mannerism to me"

But however you slice it... if you know there are people who consider handshaking important and you know there are people who will be offended if you don't then you pretty much know that by refusing to shake hands you will be offending "somebody." So the question comes down to whether or not it's worth the risk? It would be enormously difficult to quantify the risk but that's what I'm going to attempt to do with the poll. But I think the mix just here on the forum should give us all some idea that there is a significant portion on both sides of the question.

And so that really does return us to the core issue at hand. If knowing that you will offend someone regardless of how you feel about it be enough to get you to always shake hands or will you risk the damage it may do and refuse to shake for whatever your reasons are?

I can tell you this much. I'm enjoying the discussion quite a bit. 8)

[NoahRodenbeek]

I feel like this topic is fabricated off of a misinterpretation. 

Is there an account from any fans of them actually snubbing an offered handshake?  hey're boycotting handshakes and dripping weeping, pussy wounds into each other's urethras.  That smells like a joke to me.


"Not to mention what kind of crazy-ass you would have looked like if you had them pulled some Klingon salute at them."

The vast majority of Penny-Arcade fans are Trekkie/Star Wars fans and would probably not be embarrassed about doing the salute... it would have fit their Klingon cosplay outfit perfectly.

[Rob]

My friends at Rooster Teeth confirmed that Scott refused to shake hands explaining that he didn't want to get sick that weekend. And Scott publicly blogged that "not shaking hands worked" in his blog.

They were also far more "serious" in the tweets they sent out about not shaking hands.

But I wasn't at PAX East so I don't know for sure.

I can tell you that for me this discussion is more about the theoretical idea of not shaking hands and the ramifications of that choice rather than the reality of it because to be honest I would do what I want anyway and shaking hands has always been something I do.

So whether the premise of the discussion is theoretical or not doesn't really matter all that much. I'm more looking at it from the perspective of "If no one cares... and it's a good way to avoid illness then we should promote it as a good practice at conventions but if some people care and may get offended then a) is it worth the risk of illness to avoid offending that portion of potential fans or b) is it worth the risk to the business (potential loss of fans) to not shake hands?"

That's where I'm at.

[Gibson]

And Scott publicly blogged that "not shaking hands worked" in his blog.

It's really shaky logic to think that he didn't get sick BECAUSE he didn't shake anyone's hand. The only way it isn't silly to think this is if everyone who shook hands got sick and no one who didn't shake hands did.

[JR]

Scott Kurtz wrote this in his March 30th blog:

And for the record, refusing to shake hands worked. I think it worked for a lot of people. It was nice. Everyone did great.

Other than that cartoon that ran over at Penny Arcade, I haven't heard any comments from any of the other creators involved and can't ascertain if they're being serious or not.  Kurtz sounds like he was being serious.  Obviously what I think of him shouldn't have any merit to him or to his fans, but I think that he's full of himself.

Stan Lee is more recognized than all these individuals combined, and he still shakes people's hands (and he's older than dirt).  Jack Kirby actually invited fans into his home; they ate his food; they swam in his pool (and probably peed in it).

And Scott Kurtz can't shake a fan's hand?

As a courtesy to Kurtz, Holkins and Krahulik, I won't spend any of my germ-ridden money on their merchandise.  Wouldn't want them to get sick.

[NoahRodenbeek]

Right, if they're actually refusing handshakes then they suck.  It's hard for me to get into idol-worship mode with a fellow web-comicist, and I'd be pretty livid if I had a handshake snubbed by one of them.  Stan Lee, now that would be the greatest handshake snub of all time.  He could spit in my face and I'd still be happy to meet him!

[JR]

I met Stan Lee a few years ago.  I'm usually not fazed by meeting celebrities or what-not, but I was a gushing fan boy when I met "The Man."  He was the nicest person that you could meet, too.  He seemed very appreciative.

[ran]

I'm not saying I oppose hand-shaking, because I don't, but this quote hit a nerve for me:

But however you slice it... if you know there are people who consider handshaking important and you know there are people who will be offended if you don't then you pretty much know that by refusing to shake hands you will be offending "somebody."

To play the devil's advocate here:

However you slice it, if you know that there are people who don't like shaking hands, don't think it's important or fear for their health or the health of the people who are shaking their hands, and you know that there are people who will be offended if you do try to force shaking their hand on them despite their specific request that you not, then you pretty much know that by forcing the issue you are going to offend "somebody", too. Especially if they've given you a simple alternative to it like the Klingon whatever thingie.

I do not understand the perceived obligation, here. No one owes you a handshake, and even if you don't agree with it, the pure outrage at the hypothetical situation in where, if you had gone, you may not have gotten one comes off as a weird and uncalled for sense of entitlement.

To some people, handshakes are not that important. You can rant all you want about that not mattering because there are people who DO think they're important, but it feels awful hypocritical considering that you feel that your perspective takes precedence over  the person who doesn't care for them and doesn't want themselves or you to get sick.

Honestly, this is an overblown topic. I really don't think it deserves all the outrage it's getting.

[Rob]

Geez Ran... but how do you really feel about it? :P

I'm asking questions and looking for answers. Not ranting. Some people feel more passionately on the subject than I do but... despite your feelings on the subject I do think it's a discussion worth having. Especially if this "no handshaking" policy becomes the norm.

If you said hello to someone and they didn't respond... most people would probably consider that rude. In this case I'm working off of the same premise... the generally accepted, common sense idea that if you refused a handshake... also a type of greeting, that some folks would be offended; even if you explained your reasoning some would at the least be disappointed.

It is this premise that I seek some measure of proof for with the poll I mentioned. If I can get some feedback on it I might have a better idea if it is a practice that will hurt a convention exhibitor or not. I drew a conclusion based on what I've seen here so far in this thread... that handshakes are important to some of us. Obviously I'd like more evidence before I say it's an issue that all exhibitors should consider. But that doesn't change my opinion of what the outcome will be.

And your opinion is no less valid than mine. You may be right. We may be making mountains out of molehills here because if nobody cares than it doesn't matter.

But in the short run I can tell you that "somebody" cares because several somebodies, including me, have said so. You may call it an "uncalled for sense of entitlement" but I see it as part of the social contract we all adhere to for the most part. Shaking hands is an accepted and expected greeting. I've never been to a job interview or met a girlfriends parents where a handshake wasn't exchanged and I can't think of a webcomic maker whom I met at a con who didn't shake my hand when I stuck it out.

And I do stick it out. Sometimes I don't have to because they beat me to the punch but I can't think of a single creator I've met whose hand I didn't shake.

To me it's part of the con going experience and if I was expected to give the "Iron Cross" instead I wouldn't bother. I'd also be a lot less interested in going to cons.

[Gibson]

No one owes anyone a handshake, it's true, but no one owes you a 'bless you' after a sneeze, an "excuse me" after a belch, a "thank you" after someone holds a door for you, a wave after letting you change lanes in front of them, or even holding the door or letting someone change lanes in front of them. No one owes anyone these things in the sense that there is no legal or financial burden for anyone to do so, but those are the rules that we play by in our society. We don't get to vote on things like that, they just are or aren't. You don't have to do them, but if you don't, then be prepared for others to think you a douchebag. Things like that don't exist in a vacuum, when people decide to behave a certain way that is counter to what is generally thought of as polite, there will always be a reaction like this. If you (not you, Ran, specifically) don't think so, keep it in mind the next time someone doesn't give you the lane-change wave.

I don't know Scott Kurtz and I don't read his comic, so I can't speak for what he is like. He could be a really good guy and I don't think he's the devil. All I know is how he comes off in this situation, and in this situation, he seems like a hypochondriacal egomaniac who thinks that not shaking someone's hands is a magic wand to prevent disease. I found myself wondering when I saw that last quote whether he believed the rotation of the sun caused hunger. Yeh, I can understand not wanting to get sick from some unwashed comic nerd, but until someone tells me he wasn't handling their money, then I call hypocrisy.

[Rob]

Aaaaaaaaaaaand once again along comes Gibson who makes my point more eloquently than I did.

I need to hire you as my PR flack or some shit.  8)
_{As soon as I have more than $1.25 in my checking account}

And I have met Scott Kurtz... I assure you he's a very nice guy.

And his comic is actually quite funny when he isn't giving Steve Jobs a metaphorical BJ (which is often enough to be annoying but not too bad). I find the LOLBat and Retweet stuff particularly charming. You should check it out.  ;)

I can also tell you that both times I met him he was handling the money. I can also tell you that When I met Jerry and Mike they had "people" who handled the money as they were waaaaaaay too busy to do that shit themselves and when I introduced myself as a fellow webcomicer and gave Jerry a Remedy T-shirt (what can I say I like the writer... sue me... Mike got an autographed print... how's that for arrogance? LOL) they initiated handshakes with me. In fact I even had a little chat with Mike about "not squeezing his hand too hard because I have some idea what he's going through drawing all weekend... but I didn't want him to think I was a limp shake, I was just thinking of him."

I think it would be foolish to dismiss the idea that shaking hands at cons can lead to illness. Too many people get sick after cons for it to be a coincidence. At the same time it could be airborne, or in the food at one of the concessions or even on the monies: or even on one of those filthy Wookies everyone is always rubbing up against.

The question for me has always been is it worth it: is it worth alienating fans who might be offended by the "no shake" policy on the off chance it will keep you healthy? And at the same time is it worth it to keep shaking hands if you get knocked on your arse for a week every time you go to a convention? I am trying to look at both sides of the issue... even if I personally feel not shaking hands is something I would never do.

[LegendWoodsman]

I do find that this discussion is very interesting (and looking at the number of responses, I guess others do too). It's also interesting at how polarizing this topic can become - where some people would make an 'absolutely-no-touching policy' and a result could be the opposite, where others could make it a mission to shake as many hands as possible.

[ran]

I'm not sure you're quite getting the point I was trying to make, Rob:

Scenario 1: You try and shake my hand at a convention, I inform you that I'm coming down with something and politely decline. I have also helpfully put up a sign saying that I'd rather not shake hands, and am also wearing a shirt that urges you to not do so as well. You are offended.

Scenario 2: I'm Scott Kurtz and I make it clear in my blog that I don't want to get really sick and will not be shaking hands I've perhaps even placed a sign at my table, or am wearing a t-shirt that says I will not be shaking hands. However flawed my reasoning is, I've made it clear that I don't want to, and you come up to my table, look at the sign, look at my shirt, and still try and force your hand on me. I am offended that you are forcing your hand on me, and *I* feel rude for not taking it, but my desire to not get sick is prevalent and I end up looking like a dick because you are being pushy despite ample warning. I am offended.

Point: Why is YOU being offended any different from ME (hypothetical Scott Kurtz) being offended? Why is either party's offence more important? Why is either party's less?  You can rave all you like about social conventions, but not everyone adheres to or places the same importance on each and every one.

I am a GIRL. I do not really place the same stock in handshakes as most of the guys posting in here do, and that is very clear to me. Maybe it's because the only time I have ever shaken someone's hand has been at job interviews, and sometimes when I am meeting people for the first time and they offer first. I have sold at conventions before, and the one or two times that people have wanted to shake my hand, I let them. I am fine with that. However, I do not see why shaking my hand is necessary, and oddly enough, it seems that a lot of other people are the same--there are people who come up to me who want to chitchat for 25 minutes, but they don't even think of offering me their hand, because it isn't really relative to selling art or in the dealer's room at a convention.

[Rob]

There's an awful lot to cover in that post Ran.

First I'll say I do get your point but I sort of discounted it because you used the words "...people who will be offended if you do try and force shaking their hand on them..." and forcing anyone to shake my hand would, in the context I thought you were saying it, assuredly lead to my ejection from the con and possibly an assault charge.

Simply put if someone doesn't want to shake a hand nothing says they have to.

But I now I see you are more referring to some sort of emotional blackmail. Like I would stand there with my hand out and an expectant look on my face, ignoring the sign and T-Shirt and verbally conveyed request.

Frankly I consider that nonsensical. There aren't a whole lot of people who would ignore all that and insistently have their hand out any way. Although I actually find the scenario fairly ripe with comedic possibilities. But that's not important.

You've asked an important question and I'll try and answer it but I can only answer it for myself... at least until Gib comes back in here and says it better for me. LOL. :D

Your question... if I may boil it down a bit, seems to be "why my expectation of a handshake is more important that an exhibitors desire to not shake hands" or perhaps better put with some of your words "why  is it that something that offends me should be more important than something that offends an exhibitor?"

Under your scenario, you (Kurtz) would first have to refuse my handshake (offending me) before I could try and pressure you into doing it anyway (offending you); leaving us both offended and generally unhappy with each other. Even prior warning doesn't change this. If, when I met Scott at NY Comic Con last year this had taken place beforehand and I knew he wasn't going to shake hands I would be bothered by it.

Does it infiltrate my dreams and make me question the existence of God? No. Someone not shaking my hand isn't really that big of a deal to me. I would most likely think less of the person generally and move on with my life (I would not engage in the Iron Cross salute as suggested because I frankly find it condescending, but that's just me). But if you look at it from a more macro/sociological perspective it is certainly something worth considering if for example you were running a community forum for people involved in the webcomic business who are looking to maximize returns at conventions where they interact with large groups of the public.

Scott made himself the poster boy for this issue (as he often does and I think often seeks to do in his clever way) but it's important for me to have everyone understand that Scott isn't really the issue. He's the catalyst because his name recognition took something that many folks have done in the past on a small scale and made it a big deal that effected a lot of people. But it is the behavior that's at issue here. Not the man.

But that doesn't answer your question really so I'll take another stab at it. Offense is such a personal thing. What offends one person (obviously) may not even be noticed by another and from traveling the world I can tell you that what offends people is also cultural.

When I was in the service and in the Gulf for the war we were given handbooks on certain things we should avoid doing when dealing with the population of the country. On the list was touching people with your left hand. Some people said it was spiritual and some folks said it was because the Bedouins of old never had anything but their own left hands to wipe their backsides with when they pooped in the sand (which frankly made me a hell of a lot more concerned about them touching me with their left hands than they should have felt about me touching them.... I always carried extra TP). Another no-no was showing an Arab the sole of your shoe which basically meant people who liked to cross their legs when sitting would have to get a new leg position. Some people said this was also related to people stepping in Camel poo all the time and no one wanting to really see that.

We were also warned that Arab people have a very different idea of how big a personal zone of space is and that we should be prepared for them to get uncomfortably close to us without backing away out of discomfort. And although I never had to deal with the first two I can confirm this last one is true. It's been twenty years and I can still smell the guy and tell you how many fillings he had in his teeth.

These "social conventions" as you put it, that we adhered to because we were ordered to were there to keep us from offending the local population.

Now in my culture, where I live and where I've lived most of my life; people shake hands. It's about respect. You look someone directly in the eyes, give them a firm grip: you are acknowledging them. It's a very basic and very common practice here in Connecticut (at least amongst the circles of people I'm related to, been friends with and generally known for my almost 40 years in the state).

So you've asked why my offense is more important than yours (or Scott's as the query goes).

The simple answer is, it isn't.

But...

And this is where it gets more complicated. If I'm at a convention and I want you to buy my stuff, support my art, tell your friends and family about me and so on: if I want you to be a patron of my artistic endeavors, I would say that it is more important that I do not offend you, than any offense I may receive on your behalf.

Webcomics creators are full of con stories about crazed fans who have crossed lines they never should have but in general, the ones I have heard all seem to end with the creator acknowledging that that one crazy fan has probably told everyone he/she knows about the creator's work. And therefore, despite the insanity or offense on the part of the creator it pays for the creator to be gracious in the situation.

From a sales and marketing perspective, you lose customers when you offend them. I hope it's safe to say that that is a generally accepted truism. In most businesses (with the exception of "Dick's" in Boston which is a lot of fun and perhaps a stand up comedy show) if your customers think you are rude they won't come back; especially if there is an alternative. It's one of the founding precepts of our foundering capitalist society.

To be even more artistic centered I'll offer this question. There was a time in this world where much of the great art created was made by artists who were supported by patrons. The Pope for example was a patron of Michelangelo when he commissioned him to paint the Sistine Chapel. Michelangelo supposedly resented the commission because he saw it as serving the Pope's need to show off. He worked for the Pope for four years. How long do you think that work would have lasted if, whenever the Pope came to see Michelangelo instead of bowing before him and kissing his ring (and Yuck I might add... how many people probably got sick from that practice?) Michelangelo insisted on a "no touching" policy and asked to Pope to do the Klingon "Iron Cross" salute as a greeting to him?

Probably not long. But again, just my opinion.

If you are looking at things from a perspective of "will Rob be offended" you really aren't seeing the bigger picture I'm talking about. Sure, I might be offended but I'm one person. Who cares? But if the numbers come back like 1 in 5 or even 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 people would be offended by a no handshaking policy, at what point does it become less about the policy and more about the ramifications.

I mean, on the small scale you say:

I'm Scott Kurtz and I make it clear in my blog that I don't want to get really sick and will not be shaking hands I've perhaps even placed a sign at my table, or am wearing a t-shirt that says I will not be shaking hands.

And I'm already bothered by it. I wouldn't bother trying to force you to shake my hand. I already think less of you and am moving on.

If there is no prior warning and I find out when I'm standing in front of you then the situation to my mind is even worse (even a sign and a t-shirt didn't give me the foreknowledge before I came to the Con and now I'm standing in front of you and I see you aren't shaking hands). I think even less of you and move on.

I wouldn't try and force the situation and I don't think most people would. If someone does just to rub your face in it well... that's actually kind of funny in a just desserts sort of way but it's not something I would do. If they did though, and you feel rude for not taking it then that's good because you are: rude I mean. And if by refusing you feel like you are coming off kind of like a dick because that guy is being pushy then you are right on both accounts. A person who would force this sort of issue is pushy (which is rude) and you are also coming off like a dick by refusing it anyway. Sorry, them's the breaks when you divert from expected social convention.

But again, all of this is just my opinion.

Just as:

However, I do not see why shaking my hand is necessary, and oddly enough, it seems that a lot of other people are the same--there are people who come up to me who want to chitchat for 25 minutes, but they don't even think of offering me their hand, because it isn't really relative to selling art or in the dealer's room at a convention.

Is your opinion.

Just as me saying the opposite:

However, I do see why shaking my hand is necessary, and oddly enough, it seems that a lot of other people are the same--there are people who come up to me who want to chitchat for 25 minutes, then offer me their hand, because it is vitally important to selling art or in the dealer's room at a convention.

Is opinion.

But there is one part of this where opinion comes into play. And it is at the macro level and it is directly related to the things I've been talking about in prior posts. And it goes like this.

If I am offended by people refusing to shake hands for whatever reason (although if they said they had leprosy I'd probably be ok about getting put off). And there are a few others here in this thread who have said the same, it does beg the question "how many would be put off by this behavior?" Which leads to the next question "how many people offended would it take to adversely affect my webcomic business?" And lastly "is it worth the risk of offending anyone?"

Shaking hands and all that comes with it is a voluntary behavior; just as refusing to shake hands is as well and there are repercussions to both decisions. On the one hand you may get sick. On the other you may risk alienating fans or potential fans or at the very least customers. I said may even though I know "I" would be put off and so would a few others who have said so here. But if the numbers are statistically insignificant then what's three or four people put off? Not really worth the risk of getting sick I'd say. Even if it's 3 or 4 per Con.

But the fact, yes FACT that it would bother me means that by refusing handshakes at least one person would be put off by it and would be less inclined to support you financially, promote your work to others and generally have a positive attitude towards your endeavors. And this fact justifies the exploration of how widely these ideas are held and the possible ramifications of each choice. At least to my mind it does.

Because if it is 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 even then those are significant numbers and if you offend that many people there will be consequences. Financial consequences. And in time you may find that your popular webcomic isn't quite as popular and that your best selling merch isn't selling quite as well.

Again, these is all conjecture based upon one fact. That "I" would be bothered if someone refused my handshake. But the exploration of it is worthwhile.

And I don't think I'm raving or ranting.

Do you guys think I'm raving and/or ranting?

Poll time!

I've tried to refrain from incendiary language and exposition but I'm told I come off like a combative douche sometimes so there's always that. I don't know. Honestly I'm just sitting here calmly in front of my desktop typing away serenely. I feel nothing more than an intellectual curiosity on these subjects. Not worked up in the slightest. I do have some concern for the future in that I really hope to get my own work to the point that I'm exhibiting at Con's myself soon and I'd hate to get there and discover con attendance in the crapper and the business model destroyed by self involved weenies whose desire to avoid the common cold overrode their business sense but that's pretty monster in the closet kind of fear right there. Not a concern I can take all that seriously. And if that's the limit of my fears then I'd say I'm pretty calm on the subject.

It's not like Scott refused to shake my hand. I've shaken his hand twice. And the Penny Arcade guys. Any more physical contact between us and people might start talking. LOL. ;D

[Gar]

And Scott publicly blogged that "not shaking hands worked" in his blog.

It's really shaky logic to think that he didn't get sick BECAUSE he didn't shake anyone's hand. The only way it isn't silly to think this is if everyone who shook hands got sick and no one who didn't shake hands did.

Lisa, I would like to buy your rock...
___________________________________

I think the handshake is more prevalent among men than women, so it wouldn't have the same meaning for you Ran. I'm not sure if there's really an equivalent for women (I know women shake hands, but it's different and not as ingrained).

The handshake is a gesture of trust and equality, and contrarywise declining a handshake is a mark of disrespect. While "I don't want to get sick" is perfectly valid, refusing to shake hands kind of reads as "You are my inferior".

I thought the comic PA posted was a really good workaround for that though. Advance warning was given in a non-dickbag kind of way through the comic which everyone at the con could reasonably have been expected to read, rationale was explained and an alternative ritual of recognition was given. As long as they return the Klingon salute (or initiate it when a handshake is proferred) then there's no snub as far as I'm concerned.

I don't really like PvP, so I don't know how Scott Kurtz approached this. Doing a comic about it AND putting up signs AND wearing a t-shirt makes the transition into dickbaggery through overdoing it though. Kind of a "HEY! HEY! LOOK AT ME! I DON'T WANT TO TOUCH PEOPLE!!!" kind of thing. Sounds to me like he was trying to generate big multi-page forum threads about social convention and imagined offense...I don't think getting people talking about you is bad PR

[Edit: Rob posted his essay while I was typing, so that last paragraph is tacked on]