To shake or not to shake

[wendyw]

Ever since I started this community I find myself more and more inclined to censor myself. Not because I really care all that much what people think of me; but mostly because the blowback every time I say something dumb or provocative can get wearying. And since this site has made me marginally more noticeable in the community the blowback has increased.

I get that.
I've censored myself a few times over at the Webcomic List forums since I got made a moderator and then an admin over there, because I'm not just represeting myself now, which became even more important with the situation from the awards. How would you feel getting an email telling you that you won an award, from someone that called you an obnoxious hack on the very site that's issuing it? Not that there are many people I would call that anyway, even if I did feel like I was in a position to be brutally honest.

I do wonder though if I'd be quite as self censoring if it wasn't someone else's site, if I was in the position you're in.

[Rob]

Penny Arcade has weighed in further on the discussion now.


Those questions I posed about the implications for conventions and webcomics business seem a little more important now don't they?

Tycho also discusses the subject very briefly in the news post here.

[JGray]

Amanda, did you get pictures of all the high fives?

You could totally do a BNR about a tiny, invading alien armada getting slapped out of existence by webcomic people!

[uncaringmachine]

Maybe a sign at the beginning of the line or on the table that says "No handshakes, please. I don't wanna get sick! I have a very weak immune system!" And maybe a tshirt.

[TTallan]

I don't recall handshakes being a big part of conventions, either. Then again, maybe that's just because I'm not a particularly well known artist, so no one's terrifically interested in shaking my hand.  ;) Usually the contact between me and the fans is limited to an occasional exchange of goods for money, and a smile and a thank you.

I would think there is a good way and a bad way to get across the idea you don't want to shake hands for health reasons. It's entirely possibly to do so politely and without getting anyone's back up. For instance, when someone smiles apologetically and says to me they don't want to shake hands with me because they have a cold, I'm not offended at all. So if the PAX guests said to their fans that they're not taking the offered hand because they're concerned for their health (the fans' health, that is), it would go over much better. Also, I really like the alternate suggestion of the Klingon greeting. This is a nerdfest, after all. It's like a secret handshake, and still a great way to interact with the fans.

Do you think there should be a double standard for people on the internet who boldly shed their anonymity and take responsibility for their words? Consider this question in light of the fact that most on the internet do not have to take responsibility for their words. Now consider this question in light of the inequities of text based communication. In short, should real folks be cut a bit more slack when they say stupid shit on the internet?

No. People should be held accountable for what they say. But they should also be given the opportunity to apologize or take back their words if they wish, and anyone they might be apologizing to should have the good grace to accept it and move on. We have been communicating in text for a long time. Authors of books, letters, newspapers, etc. have all managed for centuries to communicate without the benefit of face-to-face cues. We've just gotten lazy about it, and it's about time we, as an electronic-based society, started making better use of our versatile language again. 

[amanda]

Amanda, did you get pictures of all the high fives?

Alas, most of them were drive-by high-fives.

[Gibson]

You know, I think the biggest thing we should find offensive is the idea that people charge for autographs! Are these two muttonheads charging for their autographs? If so, that's what makes them massive douchebags. Who is so fantastic that their mere signature is worth money? Way to go, Picasshole!

Honestly, I don't know how anyone doesn't see how this could be insulting. When a person offers their hand to you, as has been said, it's part of the social contract to shake it. Not doing so signifies something, whether you want it to or not. In this case, it does kinda smack of superiority. "I know you're here because you're a big fan and you've paid money to be here and you've stood in line for a while to see us and you read our stuff and buy our merch and that helps us pay our bills so we don't have to have a real job, but I'm afraid I can't give you that moment of feeling that we are equals because you might have cooties." Do a fist bump instead, people get that. Or just bite the bullet and shake the hand. Being a success in your field has a price and shaking hands with the people who make you a success is a really small price. I can understand not wanting to get sick, I really can, but that's not the only or even the most important consideration. We do owe our fans something, even if it's as simple as pretending that they're not icky. If you get sick after every convention, maybe you shouldn't go.

My girlfriend next to me is saying this, and I don't disagree: "Any time someone famous decides their fans have to go through a special procedure to interact with them is just pure douchebaggery, because the only people who actually get to do that are heads of state and royalty."

But, hey, to the other question of whether people should be given a larger berth on the internet, I think it's just a question of being open and knowing that you don't know them, and you don't have all the facts. As far as censoring yourself goes, that's tricky. I think people should censor themselves, but not to the point that they stop themselves from saying things they think should be said. This issue, though, is one where keeping your mouth more or less shut...or at least not jumping headlong into the fray...is not the worst idea in the world.

[ran]

As far as I am aware, neither of them is charging for their autograph. The only people I've heard that do this practice at cons tend to be guest celebrities, of the in tv/movies variety.

At any rate, it's common knowledge that comic/geek culture conventions mean hundreds of people crammed in small rooms and line ups. And if the people in those crowded rooms and lines are anything like half of the geeks who come into the store I work at (protip: they absolutely are), then they don't shower, don't know what deodorant is, cough/sneeze on their hands which they then wipe on their shirt or pants, proceed to touch everything afterwards and have no concept of personal space. I am not surprised when they say they'd like to come home from a con just once and not be sick--we send people to cons to sell stuff, and 90% of them come back with what we've dubbed 'Con-Flu.' This convention's particular brand of con-flu (involves puking and shitting your guts out--sounds an awful lot like food poisoning, possibly one of the worst experiences I have ever had) really sounds like something that should be avoided at all costs.

I'm not excusing how they've gone about it, but let's think about this--if you walked up to someone at a con and tried to shake their hand, and they said 'Sure, hold that thought!' and proceeded to pull out a pair of laytex gloves so they could return your handshake, how much more NOT insulted would you be than if they asked you to do the lame Klingon greeting instead? Or, how insulted would you NOT be if, after shaking your hand, you watched your favourite artist whip out a bottle of hand sanitizer or disinfectant handy-wipes and slather it all of their own hands? Honestly, as long as you are apologetic enough in person, people understand.

At any rate, second question answer: it is possible to still say what you want or need to say while keeping a level head. Back when I was an admin on smackjeeves, I can't remember how many times I wanted to bitch someone out or call them a moron because they were being ridiculous or were just plain wrong. But I didn't, and 90% of those people came around to my point of view, both out of AND in the private admin boards. I'm not saying I have a magic power in where people agree with me after talking to me (that would be awesome), but by presenting your problem or disagreement in a rational and thoughtful manner, people tend to listen instead of deciding that you're a crazy drama-monger or a dictator. The key is to present yourself in a way that makes people think 'wow, we should listen to him/her! They sound like they know what they're talking about!'

[JGray]

My guess is they weren't charging for their autographs. They were selling books and quick commissions and autographing said work.

[Rob]

I think.... and I may be mistaken here... but we may have some gender bias in the results sample.

Are handshakes a bigger deal to guys than girls? I know Amanda is more in line with the guys and Noah with the girls... are they outliers?

Do guys think a handshake is more important than girls?

Gib your girlfriend is very succinct in her appraisal of the issue. Well done.

But...

This issue, though, is one where keeping your mouth more or less shut...or at least not jumping headlong into the fray...is not the worst idea in the world.

Why? Can you elaborate?

Conventions are often as much about business networking as they are about fandom. Will creators who refuse to shake hands with fans also refuse handshakes from vendors who can offer them great deals on their printing costs or mocking up a prototype of that plushie character they've always wanted to sell?

When the fans see creators shaking hands with vendors and fellow creators they know during that business/networking aspect of the con and then refusing to shake their hands.. how do you think that will go over?

And lastly, I'm kind of surprised no one has taken this on, on a more global perspective. Penny Arcade essentially issued an edict with that comic establishing what some might say is a "rule" governing the behavior of thousands upon thousands of fans and creators. Some rules "no sleeping in public", "no nudity"  are rules that have come about over the years at conventions and are generally accepted. Do you think that this "no touching" whatsoever rule will catch on and how will it affect the business side of webcomics?

I'm going to offer the first of my opinions on these wide ranging subjects right here.

If I were exhibiting at PAX I would tell them to cram it. As much as I love Penny Arcade (and I've met Mike and Jerry and they are VERY nice guys whose success and accomplishments I admire and respect greatly) I find the idea that they can dictate whether or not I shake someone's hand very offensive to my free will/personal liberty or whatever you want to call it. If they didn't like it they could refund my exhibitor fee and my expenses and send me on my way. But adding a rule like that to the game at the last minute is way beyond anything I would tolerate and I wouldn't attend a con that contractually tried to control such interactions.

I will shake hands with anyone who wants to shake hands with me. Period. If I get sick because of it that's my problem. If someone else gets sick because they choose to shake my hand then that is their problem. Any time someone tries to codify personal choice or personal responsibility it chills me to the core.

I also think, should this no touching thing become widespread the implications for smaller webcomics will be more hurtful than for the big guys. If any of you have watched Howard Taylor's talk about the webcomic's business you know that the bear we have to kill to make us successful enough to survive off of our work is to get those 1000 true, hardcore fans. That's the one thing that no one who gives webcomic advice can tell us how to do. But my instinct tells me that adding the Klingon greeting and refusing human contact with your fans will not facilitate this.

Also... has anyone considered what it would be like to return the Klingon salute all day long for three days to fan after fan? Or is it a one sided thing where the fan is expected to perform this salute and the creator just sort of nods in acknowledgement?

[Gibson]

But...

This issue, though, is one where keeping your mouth more or less shut...or at least not jumping headlong into the fray...is not the worst idea in the world.

Why? Can you elaborate?

If for no other reason than, on issues like this that are kinda just knucklehead stuff, so many people are going to be spouting off on it that you end up looking like just as big a crackpot as everyone else. What I think is interesting is that you've couched this whole thing in a bigger issue, and that is of looking at how your reaction is different than it would have been in the past. Plus, raising it here saves you from jumping into Twitter's World of Twats.

[Rob]

My reaction aside I'm much more interested in what this sort of thing will mean for the future. I actually wish.... for the first time ever... I wish I could poll fans on the subject.

I wonder if the wonderful Wendy might be inclined to try and set up a poll for readers only (no creators) at The Webcomics List to see how fans might react to being refused a handshake?

Oh Wendy Dear?

LOL. I'm gonna PM her.

As mentioned previously Gary Tyrell had offered to bring Scott Kurtz some gloves for his use at PAX East. Yesterday during his daily update he discussed briefly the Tweet regarding the Norovirus from the PAX Twitter and enthusiastically advocated (threatened) hand washing. I find it interesting that not once did he say he would not shake someone's hand; nor did he address the issue of those who had.

http://www.fleen.com/archives/2010/03/25/sometimes-the-themes-just-demand-to-be-used/

I'm glad you're letting me off the hook for not jumping in publicly on this Gib but this thread and my ponderings would quickly become part of the public discourse if anyone who has the heft to bring such things to light discovers it. It was a chance I was ok taking because I really am interested in the subject. My knee jerk reaction to being offended to the way it has been presented is running a distant second.

That said, I've also never been afraid to roll around in the muck with the pigs if things get ugly on the internet. If there is any chance this sort of thing will hurt the community and/or smaller comics looking for an audience then they absolutely should have been called on it... both for the idea/rule and the 'tude that came with it.

To put another one of my answers on the board I will tell you that shaking hands is pretty important to me. If someone refuses to shake my hand, even if they say something like "I don't want to get sick so I'm not shaking hands" it would make me feel slighted. If they said they were sick and didn't want me to get sick I'd be more understanding but I've also always felt that if I still want to shake you hand in spite of that you should indulge me because it's me taking the risk. My choice.

On the flipside I've often told people I didn't want to shake hands with I was sick. I'm not going to lie. I'm not proud of it but I've done it. In the few instances when I was actually sick and I run into someone I would shake hands with I've felt guilty just by telling them we shouldn't shake because I'm sick. I feel like I'm letting them down because it's something they expect from me... that camaraderie.

I can say that much of my affection for the community and specifically certain creators was their willingness to pal around with me and talk with me like a peer. I would never shake the hand of a clerk at a convenience store or a cashier at the deli but when I'm communing with someone whose art I am passionate about and am supporting that art I expect to be treated a certain way and as a "customer" doesn't do it. And if someone were to sell me a book, sign it or sketch in it or whatever and then refuse my handshake and then indicate that they didn't "owe" me said handshake they wouldn't have me as a fan much longer. I might continue to read their work as long as it was free but I wouldn't go out of my way to promote or support it and I certainly wouldn't be buying anything else from them.

I also wonder how much of this is cultural? I know people from outside the US tend to think of us as all one nation but the country really is very different from state to state and city to city. My military background which was 20 years ago has instilled in me a lifetime of expectations when it comes to things like handshakes and greetings. In the service these things aren't just about saying hello they are about respect and shared experiences and fellowship.

I think all of this is very thought provoking and seeing that there are quite a few people who see the con experience as more of a sort of retail exchange has really made me think.  :-\

[Gibson]

You know, there is a difference in what your initial reaction was and what you posted here, and it's the kind of thing that would make the internet a much more tolerable place: questioning yourself. The biggest thing about all the ridiculous internet braggadocio is that everyone is absolutely right in their opinions and never backs down. I've been guilty of it myself. It overshadows and intimidates any kind of real dialogue and just gets everyone on edge and leads to the kind of hesitation to express opinions that your first post talked about. I mean, which is more productive?

"Scott Kurtz won't shake hands! What a [expletive] sucking [expletive]!"

"Scott Kurtz has decided to avoid handshakes for fear of contracting a disease. He may not mean it, but in my opinion, this is rude behaviour and will end up alienating fans."

I guess what I'm saying is that the problem is less about having unflattering opinions than it is about eloquent and reasoned opinions versus knee-jerk blather. I'm not trying to absolve anything, but it would be nice if more people more often would react to things the way you did to this.

[Rob]

You know.. I think you may have something there. It isn't easy to be eloquent on the internet these days. Especially with 140 character limitations in some cases.

I wonder what would have happened had I Twittered something akin to your more measured statement though. Part of me thinks that the response would be the same but part of me almost wonders what it is they would have to complain about if I said it that way.

Interesting.  8)

[TTallan]

A few further thoughts:

1) Having lived through a SARS outbreak here in Toronto, I am confident that as far as the non-handshaking policy goes, this too shall pass. In our post-SARS city we still have some of the relics around like multiple hand sanitizing stations in nearly every public building, but other than that things went right back to normal with relative ease. No one goes around wearing those stupid masks anymore. Creators and fans will go back to shaking hands just like always.

2) Personally, I would not refuse to shake a hand offered to me, unless I was sick myself. But truly, I just don't get a lot of that at cons. Lots of friendly interaction, but not a lot of hand shaking. Then again, maybe that's because I'm not the sort to initiate a handshake, except under more businesslike circumstances (cons are business, but they shouldn't feel that way).

3) Just because Scott Kurtz wants to do something doesn't mean the rest of us will follow. Not only will shaking hands continue, but so *sigh* will glomping.

4) If you think think this is stupid, you should hear some of the zero tolerance rules about kids touching other kids at schools. Grade schools I mean, not high schools. Makes me crazy.