I have a 3d comic, well, it is now. I tried my hand at making it hand drawn but then I hurt my wrist in an auto accident. I tried to continue by making it easier, doing 3d overlays. This is where I posed a basic 3d model then drew over it but it proved to be too much for my wrist so I gave up and went full 3d.
My comic, Insanity of Xade, has custom models, morphs and textures. I even make some models from scratch, Alex's kitchen, minus walls, for example is a scratch model. Most of the pages has a pixel shader over top of it within daz studio called PWtoon, which makes it appear similar to a hand drawn image. I have custom settings for each character, based upon their fur/skin color. I put a lot of time and effort into ensuring that each recent comic has the correct shader settings. I also try to avoid too much of the "talking head syndrome" that I hear plagues other 3d comics, I do know of one but it would be impolite to mention them here. However, I can praise the Dreamland Chronicles because they have made an action 3d comic that you just cannot put down.
So, I want to know if you consider 3d comics an art form, or a pitiful excuse for person to make a comic. (Remember I hurt my wrist so cannot draw my comic or I would.)
I consider it art, but as with most art there are good incarnations of it and bad incarnations of it. I took a quick look at your comic and I'm happy to report that it is definitely on the "good" side of things. You took the time to give your comic a unique feel, the character models are pretty dynamic, and the faces don't have have blank looks. I've seen far too many Poser-made comics that are rigid, hollow, and lifeless. So yes, it's art, and it's quality is what you make of it.
wow! thanks! I do try to make it dynamic, there are actual expression presets that I use and I do move the eyes around to seem to focus on the person or thing they are supposed to focus on. (Unless it is Alexis, then I chose random directions because she is blind.) After all, our eyes tend to go to what we are talking to or holding, so I feel the same should be for my comic characters. However, when I first started 3d I didnt bother with the eyes, not thinking much of it but then I got to experimenting and reasoning. I have also been known to do my own expressions, based off of another, Aden's devious look (http://insanityofxade.com/index.php?id=162) comes to mind. (I was waiting on the shader to update here so no shader) and most of the poses are not presets, although they might have started as one. Again, see the one I pointed out, that was a basic sitting pose but I tinkered with it as the story progressed. I have various plugins, like the hand grip, and a few others that makes it really easy to edit stuff. If you are wondering, I call that Aden despite it actually being Alex because Aden is controlling Alex's body. You can tell this because the ears are limp except for the bottom because he is not used to controlling long ears, being a chip-fox. (http://insanityofxade.com/index.php?id=154)
(Warning: Mild rant ahead.) From dictionary.com...
Art(noun):
1.the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.
12.skilled workmanship, execution, or agency, as distinguished from nature.
So basically, anything that has been shaped by human hands and has any abstract attributions whatsoever is art. Furthermore, anyone (http://"http://www.joystiq.com/2005/11/30/ebert-video-games-inherently-inferior-to-film-and-literature/) who goes around attempting to say what is and isn't art is a priggish ignoramus.
You could argue whether or not they're 'honest' or 'art done for the sake of advancing art', but given that most web comics never see any profit, that's a bit of a no-brainer as well.
I've gone on a bit of a wild tangent, but I think it's pretty easy to extrapolate from this that my answer would be, "Well, of course they are!" Although many 3d comics are, to me, aesthetically hurt by software limitations more than 2d comics. I'd like to see more comics taking the 'partial' 3d approach and touching up backgrounds and such after rendering. Also, if the first strip of a 3d comic has flat, emotionless faces and gestures, then I'm definitely not even going to bother looking at more than one strip. Xade has lots of personality packed into it, but I can't help but to notice the lack of textures and bump mapping and so forth, where I doubt I would have that problem with a 2d comic that looks almost exactly the same. That's quite probably a personal issue, though.
Haha. It's only a matter of time before somebody pulls out a meriam webster link. Art is subjective and can't honestly be defined. Sorry dictionary nerds... ok, not really. Since it's so subjective, reception is typically the thing that determines what is or isn't considered an art form.
In general I believe that anyone who begs that what they do/like be considered art (I'm looking at you, videogame nerds) only inevitably hurts the argument for that expression becoming art in the long run.
If you were concerned about art, you'd just be making art. You wouldn't care how people categorized it.
okay, I changed the title. and the shader almost strips most of the texture away Example, Alex's pants in the current comic are indeed textured and bumpmapped, however, it was a white texture and I needed orange so I simply change the color of the pants to match the untextured shirt. Alex is actually a relatively plain guy, who does not like to be a "walking ad" for something, except perhaps Shatarian Nights, the show that he is into that one could classify as anime. His pants are actually his Shatarian Nights cosplay pants and does has tassels (http://insanityofxade.com/index.php?id=190). The light is wonky there because I was experimenting with making my own sets and somehow Alex's file got corrupted, resulting in a darker texture than normal. The tassels are bumpmapped, but you cannot tell it because of the shader. No one else has actually brought up bump and displacement maps before. Sarren's ring (http://insanityofxade.com/index.php?id=195) is the normal shader, both as the planet and the character, for they are the same prop.
I better watch it or I might spend another day here instead of making the bush I need :P
Quote from: Xade on January 21, 2010, 10:59:27 AMI better watch it or I might spend another day here instead of making the bush I need :P
Man, this forum is helping me grow as a webcomic author, but I haven't spent this much time loafing about and wasting time in forums since high school XD
Also, I apologize if the first half of my post came off as directed towards this thread at all. The thrown insult was meant for certain critics that probably aren't even within earshot. I'm sure you're on the side of 'My own comic is art, thankyouverymuch' :P
I do kind of want to argue against, "Since it's so subjective, reception is typically the thing that determines what is or isn't considered an art form", though. I mean, since we're trying to define the abstract here, there really is no right or wrong, but I feel that if a thousand people don't feel that something is art while one person does, it's still art. However, you could argue that it then isn't art to a thousand people and is art to one person, in which case both absolutes are wrong.
Abstraction is a pain, which is why I linked the dictionary for this one.
I think it's absolutely art. I'm not exactly a fan of it, because uncanny valley disturbs me. Some of my favorite art at least starts 3-D(usually painted over, though). So not my thing, for the most part, but certainly art.
speaking of 3d being incorporated into 2d art, I have noticed a bunch of sketchup enhanced comics, one of which reacently discovered it Dan Shive of El Goonish Shive (http://elgoonishshive.com/) I follow him on twitter and his most recent school hallway scene has 3d generated lockers. Personally, I find it a rather pleasing and more realistically angled hallway and it saves on his production time in the future because all he now has to do is angle it, snap it, paste it and do the actual artwork, like the characters. It gives the backgrounds more uniformity like it is in real life. After all, you would certainly look at a lamp that suddenly mutated into a different style, or a hallway that suddenly became shorter in surprise and possibly freak out.
Nuke, I agree, it has helped me, helped my layout mostly :P
Art is a silly word that could be applied to almost anything. I honestly think the word should be taken out of use because it causes useless, subjective divides. One man's art is another man's drivel.
Using the common definition, however, yes, it is most definitely art.
Quote from: Funderbunk on January 21, 2010, 12:55:18 PM
Art is a silly word that could be applied to almost anything. I honestly think the word should be taken out of use because it causes useless, subjective divides. One man's art is another man's drivel.
Using the common definition, however, yes, it is most definitely art.
heh, so says a fellow 3d artist ^_^ *waves* hello brother, or sister, whatever the case may be :)
This (http://www.normfeuticartoons.com/comics/mr-zimby-3/) pretty much demonstrates how silly it is to try to define art. The way I see it, it just doesn't matter. You can call your comic "art" if you wish, Xade, and people will be unlikely to openly disagree. However, it's not the sort of thing that comes to mind when you think "art," so it might feel a bit awkward to call it so. I think you might as well not worry about it, and simply refer to IoX as what it is, a webcomic. If you try to define its artistic legitimacy, I doubt you'll get anywhere.
That is true, Alectric, the only reason I started this debate was some twit on twitter claimed that 3d comics could not be considered true artwork and was cheating. It was all done via direct messages, (they @ed me and asked me to follow them because they had a personal issue to discuss, then deleted the tweet once I did) and I got rather puzzled about it so decided to get a more general opinion. I basically told them they didn't know what they were talking about and they have been viewing this thread. They actually just conceded that they were in error, and upon hearing about my injury understands why I went 3d. Believe me, if I had a choice I would still do hand drawn comics. I was able to take it with me wherever I go and I would not have had to lug my laptop along to the hospital when my Dad passed on so I would have something to do, and wouldn't be so far behind. However, it hurts to even sign my name, and when I do add detail to my textures I have to hold the tablet's pen at an awkward angle for my fingers so not to bend my wrist too much. It has also slowed my typing down from 115 wpm to around 95 because I move my whole arm as I type. Luckily you can mouse with a straight wrist if you do it right or I could not do IoX at all. ;)
hmm...I should add why on the FAQ page, come to think of it....
I'll be honest, all 3d comics look the same to me. The lack of real facial expressions, curves, cloth folds, exaggerations, no stylizing or use of mask-effect, the mannequin-poses, and I could go on. They all feel stiff to me compared to drawn comics, even the higher quality ones. Exceptions probably exist, I guess.
And to the school hallway mentioned above: Knowing the basics of perspective you can make a hallway like that in 5 minutes, (been there, done that) or you could trace the photo or 3d picture so your comic will still be hand drawn. Not to mention other mistakes...in the school hall page you mentioned the distance the characters stand from the lockers changes a bit every panel and the angle you see the characters changes much less than the angle of the background (see the last two panel). It's easy to see the backgrounds and the drawings were made separately, so something feels wrong through the entire reading. Even the genius Scott McCloud tried that, but it still looked terrible and still failed. http://scottmccloud.com/2-print/older/abe/index.html (http://scottmccloud.com/2-print/older/abe/index.html)
This all is just my opinion though, don't throw monkey poo at me. :)
Kind of unfair considering 3D comics are an entirely new phenomenon and you can probably count them with your fingers. They simply haven't had time to develop the most efficient techniques to do everything and still update on time. Even the current pinnacle of 3D comics, Dreamland Chronicles, is made from the work of several people. It's like drawing before the age of the pencil. Or at least an overly complicated pencil.
EDIT: Not to say that you don't have a point, because you do. It's a point that pisses me off (the point does, your post doesn't, don't take this as hostility) though because I wish there was an effective way to do, for example, clothing folds. It almost always requires animating the damn thing and, depending on how realistic you want your clothing folds to be and how good your computer is, waiting a damn long time for it to finish simulating, rinse and repeat a thousand times to account for possible errors. You could do it by hand, but that's even more of a hassle.
I admit Dan needs to perfect his new technique, but I have seen some that you would never know unless they told you it was a merge of 2d, and 3d. I forget which one, and probably lost it due to hardware failure last year but I was marveling over it when they revealed it.
Also, Daz 3d does have dynamic clothing but I for one think it's to expensive to use just on a comic. It would be different iof I could make a living off of it...
For a merge of 2-D and 3-D I know hydropix (http://hydropix.com/) sometimes renders the basic shapes and then goes in an paints over it. Sometimes he doesn't, though. He used to have a tutorial on it, but it seems that it is no longer up.
I know doing such stuff in 3d sucks balls, and I know how impossible it is for one person, and I know even a mediocre 3d model is lot of work to make. But I still pointed out how I miss this stuff, even though I know the it's the media's fault.
It's not so much the medium's fault because that's like saying a toddler that falls down the stairs brought it on himself. 3D is only just in it's infancy and these things just aren't very efficient yet, but at some point someone is going to figure it out and make the process faster.
Of course I meant it that way.
Well, I have occasionally changed my clothing to look look like they pulled it back (http://insanityofxade.com/index.php?id=138) (I forgot the shader on the shirt) to make it look like they were tugging it away to look down the shirt. And, with enough skill you can easily whip something up pretty quick. Example, Panel 3's bacground (http://insanityofxade.com/index.php?id=183) only took 10 mins, including the sky, ground, and the thing the monster is standing on. Texturing took another 15 due to having the sand texture and just needing to shade it and stuff. A sky dome is easy to make if you know how to do it. My vote incentive bush (http://topwebcomics.com/vote/9107/default.aspx) would not take the 3 days it has taken I actually had the time to deal with it the past few days and if I would have thought it through so I would not be dealing with a false start. So a skilled 3der can actually do things very quickly, and once you finish it then it is there, ready to be put into the scene.
Most items in the daz store actually has the folds morph, however, as I said before my shader washes out most things in the rendering. Come to think of it I did build my computer so it would not be a slacker in the processing department for my comic...most people cry with envy when I tell them about it so I won't give the specs. Let's just say it's a powerful machine that can handle any game you throw at it without batting an eye and leave it at that. ;)
One day 3d will be so popular that companies like Pixar will be like Disney was to all the others. (before the merger of course) Edit: I mean, how many of you tried to draw donald duck for instance as a kid?
I'm of the belief that anything is an art form if you make it so.
Some of my professors scoffed at me when I announced I was going to be drawing Sister Claire completely digital- no paper or pencil or ink involved at any stage of the page. These are guys who worked at Marvel and DC drawing superhero comics from the 80-90's, and some of them still can't grasp the concept of using a tablet. I'm sure that having seen what can be done with it, they (and other people with aversions to digital art) they will start to change their minds as more and more artists embrace the digital medium and push it to new boundaries.
Of course, you'll always have some traditionalists who prefer their own medium over yours. It's a matter of preference, and their opinion doesn't degrade what you're doing.
But I think the most important thing for people who make Poser comics is to do what all pioneers have done with new mediums, and really explore and experiment with new ways to improve the medium. To be honest, I'm not really a fan of 3D comics myself. As was previously stated by GaborBoth, the ones I have seen are generally quite stiff and they never have any of the exaggerations and crazy perspective/emotion that I require to really enjoy a comic. Also, the colors ad lighting always seem very staged, and it pulls me out of the story.
That being said, I wouldn't discount them as a legitimate form of comics, nor would I underestimate their potential to be improved exponentially over the next few years as technology improves. Dreamland Chronicles (http://www.thedreamlandchronicles.com/) is the best example of 3D webcomics I've seen. I love the colors, expressions, and character designs in it. I think the key to having a good 3D comic lies in really customizing the hell out of your models/colors/textures etc, so that they cease to look like stock material and start to look more like individual, recognizable characters.
well, I admit, that I really haven't customized Alex, yet, however, I do plan on him going through a few transformations here and there, the hair streaks are only the beginning. Eventually his face will change, along with his body structure. It's one of the things about Xade (planet) as it shows here with Alexis (http://insanityofxade.com/index.php?id=125) (her wings were hidden for the event and she had a mute choker on. Anyone who kept track of the 2008 caper might know this) and the 5 following it, if a powerful wizard of dragon descent levels up off world they go through a transformation that they cannot control. Alex has a tiny bit of dragon in him, it it can influence him at any time. Also, I am still new at 3d webcomicing, and I'm trying to learn how to do the lighting and everything correctly. It's actually kinda crappy, looking back but I was just starting to learn about Daz 3d so that's to be expected.
Now, before I hurt my wrist I had graduated to the digital art style, most noticeable is the craptacular sixth comic (http://insanityofxade.com/index.php?id=8) You can see the sudden change in the final panel. I will be changing it over to 3d eventually, and probably removing the song reference for a more original song. (The older ones will be moved to a new section of the site with links) I actually found the digital work much easier, for I could draw the guidelines on layers, be able to fill on layers and not have nearly as many fill breaks and I had before. For the record, Cara, Alex's car, can actually go over 200 mph, for he suped (sp?) up the engine. There's a reason behind that but I think I tossed out enough spoilers for one thread ;)
I was in a bit of a hurry when I made my last post, and I want to add some things I should have mentioned earlier:
I'm really sorry to hear about your wrist, I've had my own share of wrist problems which impeded my drawing ability, but nowhere near as traumatic as a car crash. :'( But the fact that you're not giving up on comics is really inspiring. It's great that you were able to find another medium to use, and I commend you for that. I have very limited experience with 3D programs, mosty because they frustrated the heck out of me. I can barely get the hang of Google Sketchup. I had Poser for a while, and I found it incredibly tedious to use when I could just use a photo or mirror for quicker, more realistic reference. I'm really impressed that you took the time to learn a whole new way of expressing your story, and I know it can't have been easy.
I'm sure that as you continue with the comic, it'll only improve more and more as you learn to master the program. I mean, I taught myself to use Photoshop and Illustrator, and you wouldn't believe how horrific my first attempts with those were. (Not that your comic is horrific! You know what I mean. XD)
hmm, I somehow missed your reply Yamino, probably because I didnt have time yesterday to loaf about. I must say that I have not actually read your comic, nor do I plan on reading it for....rather objective reasons that shall remain locked in the confines of my skull, even if you ask via pm but I hold nothing against you personally. I have glanced at it, chuckled over the concept, examined the artwork and deemed it nice, but other than that I have no plans to read Sister Clair.
I must admit, that Poser is a pain in the rear to work with, I much rather prefer Daz studio. I can actualkly pose real easy with a spin of the dials and the interface is pleasantly simple and highly customizable. I do own a copy, but I only use it when I really need to, like converting clothing with PhilC's converter or a few other handy scripts that I collected over the years. You need to try Daz studio, the link is on my site, the left sidebar. they have a special going on where all the human characters from Vicky 1 to Freak 4 is free. Check it out :)
Screw haters, the medium shouldn't matter lmao. As long as it's
something you are creating, it's art. I mean if they can say a white-
washed canvas is art then anything goes.
But personally, I think actually putting time into creating the characters
for a digital and 3d medium is so artwork. It takes creativity and talent.
So yeah, screw the haters.
Btw, totally not kidding, saw a canvas with default primer hanging in a
museum once. Mind you this wasn't some shitty place either, totally a
stand up, fine arts museum. The artists comment card implied that the
actual art was 'the shadow cast by the viewer'... whyyyyyy
Interesting: http://webcomicoverlook.com/2010/02/08/the-webcomic-overlook-107-the-dreamland-chronicles/ (http://webcomicoverlook.com/2010/02/08/the-webcomic-overlook-107-the-dreamland-chronicles/)