My Final Word On The Webcomics.com Mess... and why I won't be joining.

[Matt]

But my biggest issue is that in the past they have been comepletely unreliable in maintaining thier forums and delivering content.

I'm not so sure about that. Brad has pretty much updated Webcomics every single weekday for, what is it, two years now? That's pretty reliable.

The podcast is a little different, it's very difficult to get four successful cartoonists in a skype call once a week. It's probably easy to get four normal cartoonists to do a podcast regularly, but really, I want to hear from the guys who are doing cons every couple of weeks and are working like crazy getting books out.

Forums on the other hand, would restart an awful lot. I'd argue that they didn't offer a huge amount of value, though I always liked it when Brad took a thread on the forums and wrote an article about it. That was always interesting.

What I'm most concerned with regarding this site, and thus why this is in bold, is that this site's purpose is to rival webcomics.com. Just reading the twitter 'conversation' between you, Rob, and Scott unsettles me, because I don't want my comic caught up in some kind of drama. Can't we just be a friendly, welcoming community? I do notice that this thread was the first proper discussion on this forum, do we want to set this tone?

[Rob]

This is a free alternative to what Webcomics.com is charging for. I have no illusions about that and therefore see no reason to deny it.

As far as my comment about reliability goes, your mileage may very. If you didn't care about the forums then it probably didn't matter to you that they were up one day and gone the next. If all you wanted to do was read the articles Brad produced then I'm sure you were satisfied with what they were offering. But I would point out that the site was billed as advice from all four guys. All of them have admitted that it has been Brad, alone for a long time.

I however, loved the forums. I met more than half the webcomics people I know on those forums and even though many of them never came back after the second time they (the forums) went down I still try and keep in touch. And what success my comic has had is in equal proportions what we created, the web team that helped put it on the net, the things I learned reading HTMW and the things I learned and help I recieved from my colleagues.

Seriously, I would sit there and hit "refresh" all day long at my job if a topic I was particularly interested in was being discussed.

The second time the forums went down I seriously considered doing this (making this site) then. But I asked and was told, "they'll be back."

Then months later when I met Scott and Brad at New York Comic Con (In late January/early February last year I can't remember exactly) I asked them when the forums would be coming back. They had already been gone for months, and I was told "I'm not sure but soon." And then most recently in July when I met them again (and this time Kris too although for some reason I can't remember if Scott was there or not... But I'm sure Brad and Kris were) I asked them again when the forums were coming back and they told me the site was changing, that something like a forum was coming but that the forums I knew were never coming back and all the posts and topics covered in the forums were lost and gone forever.

I was very unhappy about this. I had to admit I felt a bit jerked around by the whole thing. But I was willing to keep going to the site and reading the articles and occasionally posting a comment (which was a poor substitution for a forum in my honest opinion) because I really like the guys and I liked the podcasts and I like thier comics and I appreciate thier advice.

But the loss of all my contacts was something I never quite got over. I like being able to talk to other creators; big and small. I like agreeing with them and seeing thier work and showing them mine and arguing about ad placement and all the things that come with running this crazy sort of business.

So the pay wall was the final straw for me. I want you guys here. All of you. And my offer to have Scott come and join the site, while tongue in cheek because I knew he would never accept it, was sincere. I'd love to have him come here and deliver the same advice he used to dole out on Webcomics.com. And the same goes for Brad, Kris, Robert and Dave too.

But while this is a free alternative to what they are offering we are not in direct competition. I cannot offer you the expertise of a Brad Guiger or a Robert Khoo (but they aren't the only big names in comics and some will come and join us.... some have already). And that is what they are selling there. For me it is not worth it because I honestly don't trust them to deliver on what they promise. I've been burned too many times before. If what they told me had been a blanket news post to the site and things hadn't worked out the way they expected I could understand that. But when a person looks me in the eye and tells me something I expect them to be straight with me. Or have a good reason for why they were mistaken.

I think you are overstating the difficulty of getting the four of them together though. Kris shows up via speakerphone for pretty much every PvP UStream (I know because I try and show up for them too). You can learn a lot from watching the big guys UStream and so I try and catch those shows. I don't miss the podcasts.

Now as far as the E-Drama and rival thing. I honestly don't know how seriously Scott is taking all this. But I would be lying if I didn't think it was hilarious. I sincerely hope (and honestly believe) that it will just blow over.

A lot of what was said happened because DJ was trying to enrage Scott. I may have played along a little bit but those two guys could argue about the color of the sky. It's what they do. So we or should I say I got caught in the middle a little bit. It promoted this site some and it was fun. But it's pretty much over at this point. Now we just have to wait and see if one, or both sites thrive. Personally I hope they both do. I think we both have something unique to offer that the other is lacking. And no one is like that in real life. When I met Scott he was polite and subdued, I was gushing and worshipful. I seriously doubt how we behave on the internet is directly indicative of how we would behave; how we undoubedly will behave, when we run into each other at a future con.

And yes, I agree with you that this isn't my first choice for an opening subject at the site. But the site is only 4 days old. We will find things to talk about and our first article goes up in about 36 hours so things will progress. That said, the actions of webcomics.com and the choices they made are the reason this site exists. If the forums were still there and the paywall wasn't I would happily be communing in thier sandbox. And it's a bit silly to try and ignore the elephant in the room. So it's best to make a clean break and move on with nothing left unsaid.

When we post the new article on Monday I will lock this post and let it slide into oblivion. And as long as we keep talking it will disappear into the archive. Never to be seen again.

Until the next e-drama.

Lastly, please keep in mind that I'm swimming with fish much bigger than I am right now. I'm doing my best. I'm sure I'll make loads of mistakes but I'll always be me, I'll always be honest. I hope you can forgive my shortcomings and contribute to the effort to minimize my errors.  ;)

[ran]

I would imagine that a cease and desist letter might. Regardless of how much people think the information is worth, they still have the rights to dictate where their IP is posted, same as you all do.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make.  Go back and reread the discussion and you'll see what I was trying get across.

No, I got what you were trying to get across. The point I was trying to make (which I did poorly) was that regardless of what time and how much warning they gave, it wouldn't have mattered if someone had grabbed articles and reposted them elsewhere before or after the subwall went up, because the issue would be easily solved with a cease and desist.

I mostly get the feeling that they didn't give the advance warning that they should have because they thought people would try and talk them out of it when it was already a foregone decision. I disagree--I'd have been just as willing to pay if I had warning, and my initial upset at the suddenness never would have happened. It would have been a far more pleasant transition, to say the least.

[mwytrykus]

I'm still undecided on this issue. I don't really mind that they're charging, I just don't have the $30 to spare right now. I do feel like it was a little sudden and surprising. And unexpected. I think they could've handled the switchover a little better.

But I am curious about what they might do with the site now, especially what Khoo's involvement is going to be. I've enjoyed it so far and found some of the articles and discussions useful. I liked the HTMWC book, but didn't find a lot of information there that I didn't already know, either from learning it elsewhere or figuring it out on my own. I don't think I need to join, and I certainly won't find everything there useful. I doubt anyone will. But I will keep checking the article previews and see how their forums continue. I didn't post there much so I don't really mind not being able to right now. I'm pretty much taking a wait and see how it goes approach.

In any case, I wish them the best of luck as I am a fan of all their work.

[Chris Crosby]

I subscribed to webcomics.com almost solely for the promised Khoo articles.  Very interested in what he has to say about monetizing webcomics that aren't PENNY ARCADE.

[Rob]

Yeah me too. And if six months from now folks are talking about how great the info is that's coming out of there I will join too. For me it was never about the money. 

[Garrett Williams]

But I will keep checking the article previews and see how their forums continue.

I never heard anything about article previews! *checks site, is pleased with what he sees* I hadn't been to webcomics.com since they were brand new(and the forums were still on Halfpixel), mainly because I didn't have the time, then the next bit of news I heard about it was the subscription wall, with only that first post visible. I was afraid they wouldn't have anything to attract people who weren't already familiar with what Webcomics.com would offer. I knew from Webcomics Weekly and their individual comics that they had enough knowledge to impart to be worth the roughly $2.50/month, but I wasn't sure what to expect from the articles.
So far, so good. I see they're going to be critiquing each other's ads, which sounds valuable, especially when you have a large concentration of successful cartoonists. At the moment, the info sounds mostly like stuff I'm not ready for yet(books, conventions, etc.), but I think it has potential.

Also, I agree with locking this thread after a while. I definitely don't want to be a member of a drama-filled forum, so if we're simply discussing it as a current event(and it IS a notable current event), I can support that.

[Rob]

Onward and Upward!