Newbie to comics

[LoGKun]

Hi Everyone, the name's Trent.

I'm 20, I'm an animation student in college, and I'm trying to run a webcomic that people will enjoy. It's a little brainchild of mine about a girl with rockin' tits who changes the life of a boy she runs into.

I know, it sounds cliched, but I'm getting to a different point in the comic. Rather, trying to, haha. http://demi.smackjeeves.com/ That's the link. I appreciate any constructive criticism you guys can throw at me, I'm looking to learn and grow from this comic. You can also find me at deviantART at http://trent-michaels.deviantart.com/

It's nice to meet all of you, and I hope with this community I can help develop my comic!

[mcfadyn]

Welcome, welcome.  Your comic seems rockin' enough.  Nice to meet you.

[Gar]

Hi, welcome to the board!

Comic looks good, anatomy looks correct and you've got some good facial expressions going. Also you can draw hands, which are the arch-nemesis of half the people on here, so Kudos.

Criticisms: Story pacing seems a little slow. It's the introduction and it looks like you're going long-form, so that's OK, but the bus needs to arrive soon. You're putting at least one joke per page, so that's good - you're already following the advice I'm about to give you, but I'm going to say it anyway to codify it for you: something interesting needs to happen on every page of a comic, especially a webcomic. This can be a joke or an action or a dramatic moment, something to keep readers interested and which ideally will hook new readers who happen upon your page. You're already doing it, but it's something you should be aware of.

There are a few too many panels with plain white background. You're doing some good work with lighting and shading on the characters, but putting them in these empty panels. A simple gradient fill creeping up from the bottom of the panel is enough to give black-and-white drawings a depth of field in most cases, just use the magic wand tool to select the background area so you're not colouring in your characters with the gradient as well. You've got a bunch of panels with the shaded background, so leaving it out for a couple of pages just makes the images look spartan, and frankly looks a little lazy. Plain white backgrounds should be reserved for close-ups where a flattened field doesn't matter.

Also there are a couple of panels where your characters are floating in space. In the most recent one (#6) I'd recommend putting in a horizon line at about knee level for Laverne, and one at about ankle level in #3 because you've drawn full figures there without establishing a ground level.

Other than that, you seem to know what you're doing, so good luck!

[Rob]

Welcome to the site. Gar gives great advice. Also your site looks like it could use some polish. You might want to submit it for review. But you're new so if you're not ready yet that's cool.

;)

[LoGKun]

Wow Gar, that critique was more than I could have hoped for, I really appreciate you taking the time to say all of that.

The bus arrives next panel, I promise haha, I just wanted to give Adrian and Laverne a bit of time to talk before getting on, so they'd at least have an excuse to want to sit together. And yeah, my backgrounds are VERY lazy. I freely admit this. I'm trying to modify my style in the comic to make them less boring and lazy.

And Rob, I'm most DEFINITELY not ready for a review, haha. I know my site could use polish. I'm using a template from SmackJeeves. I know next to nothing about web design aside from a few simple things with HTML that let me create the characters page.

[Gibson]

It's a little brainchild of mine about a girl with rockin' tits who changes the life of a boy she runs into.

It may not sound constructive when I say this, but I promise you it is. This sentence not only makes your comic sound horribly stupid, but it makes you sound like a complete asshole. Don't ever describe your comic to anyone that way. Women make up an enormous percentage of webcomic readership and most of them would be bothered by that. Some of the men too.

And when I read the dialogue, I have to wonder if you've ever had a conversation with a woman. No woman doesn't know when a man is staring at her chest, no one is that stupid, and even if they were it's a horrible cliche to have characters too dumb to tie their shoelaces. Cliche and uninteresting. On top of that, I have absolutely no interest in the male character either. He's just Typical Horndog X. If you're going to do a comic with a lot of dialogue, and it's either that or you're about to shift into porn, then you should spend some time listening to how people talk. Go to a coffee shop or something, go by yourself, talk to no one you don't have to do, and just listen to the conversations around you. When you're with your friends, keep your mouth shut as much as you can and pay attention to the way they talk. I don't mean the story they're telling, I mean the words they choose, the words they don't, the way they stress some syllables and not others, the pauses, the hesitations, what they say when they mean something else, how often they interrupt each other, what they say when listening to someone else, what they say when they agree, what they say when they don't, how they change subject, pauses in the conversation. People speak in a very distinct way but most people never bother to understand it.

Also, the pacing drags.

And you should never ever ever ever EVER explain details of your story in your comments. If it isn't on the page, it isn't in the story. Comments are not to explain what's going on in the story, what the characters' names are, where they are, why they're doing what they're doing...that's why you're making the story. Any good webcomic can be read start to finish without ever once looking at a comment.

Your line art is too shaky for such a simplistic cartoony style and your style itself is drowning in manga while reaching for a Disney life raft. It all looks like you were trying to get the pages done in under an hour. I agree with Gar that your panels are too white, but I'd say the solution isn't to bandage it with gradient fills, but actually drawing some backgrounds. One panel on a page with backgrounds does a lot. If you admit your backgrounds are lazy, it means you knew you were doing something wrong and just didn't care. Spend more time drawing what you're drawing, readers will forgive a longer schedule more than lazy art. It might be strange as an animator to be told to draw slower, but comics aren't animation...in structure, in theory, and you have to draw your own backgrounds.

[Gar]

Gibson's a little abrasive, but he generally gives pretty solid advice. Don't let his internet asshole persona fool you, he's just being tough teacher. Read for the advice in his post rather than the offence.

The "rockin' tits" thing does come off as sexist. You've mentioned your boyfriend a couple of times on your site - so for your own sake: Dude, you don't need to overcompenstraight. You'll just come off like anyone trying to fit in to a culture that they don't quite get. You don't need to be hip and with it and down with the young people. Any worthwhile art is about finding your own voice, not trying to imitate what you think the voice of your generation is like.

The gradient fill is a simple solution to give some depth-of-field to your panels. I'm all in favour of quick and easy improvement with instant results, but you are better off doing a proper background, at least for establishing shots and splash panels. Also I took a quick look at your deviantart page, and you've some nice vector art on there - you do realise you can do comics that look like that, right?

As for the characterisation, I agree with Gibson that so far your two characters are pretty one-note, but for the time being I'm putting that down to the slow pacing and the fact that you've only got six pages up. You've got Horndog X and Brand New Human, so those are your archetypes, but you need to establish why they're like that and how you want them to interact, and you need to do that in the comic itself rather than in the comments.

You say that Adrian is pretty much a self-insert character. 'Proper' writers generally warn against self-inserts, but from someone with a long-running comic with an avatar of himself in the central cast, they come into their own once you've been writing them for a while. The character 'Gar' in Neko the Kitty is pretty different from me by now. Just be careful not to romanticise your self-insert too much or turn them into the most bestest person in the whole wide world. Bear in mind that self-inserts are a quick-n'-dirty characterisation solution, but if you're honest with yourself about what you're really like then they can turn out OK.

How about you flip it around and make Laverne the self-insert character instead, and Adrian the constructed character or based on someone else? It's a better disguise for a self-insert, and will probably appeal more to female readers, and give you a different perspective on your own story.

Self-insert is basically an easy way of getting into the 'what does this character think like' mindset. Keep in mind that 'what needs to happen next?' isn't the only thing you need to consider when advancing the plot, but also 'what would this character do?'. Gibson does a good piece about writing up character sheets in his 'writing well' guide. It's basically doing up a little D&D character sheet with a couple of defining traits and quirks and important events in the character's history so you have a reference for what a character is like when writing them. It's basically a good exercise for keeping your characters in character.

[Dr. BlkKnight]

It's a little brainchild of mine about a girl with rockin' tits who changes the life of a boy she runs into.

It may not sound constructive when I say this, but I promise you it is. This sentence not only makes your comic sound horribly stupid, but it makes you sound like a complete asshole. Don't ever describe your comic to anyone that way. Women make up an enormous percentage of webcomic readership and most of them would be bothered by that. Some of the men too.

Guess I'll be supporting Gibson's statement as one of those males who decided not to look based upon the description. You make it sound like one of those comics you really don't want to be caught reading.

[Dragon Powered]

Yeah, I have to agree with pretty much everything Gibson said as well.  "A girl with rockin' tits" is a very very bad intro, unless you are aiming for porn.  Also you describe the comic as a guy meets a girl with rockin' tits on a bus and saves her life, yet here they are meeting at the bus-stop.  Also, I apologize, but "rockin' tits" is in the eye of the beholder.  Freakishly large, droopy breasts are not rockin' in my book, they're just freakishly large and droopy.  Rockin' to me is more along the lines of Kate Beckinsale.

The male lead character is a dog, the female lead is an exceptionally stupid bimbo.  You may want to give them something at least slightly interesting to keep readers coming back.

Aside from all that, I do want to say welcome.  I hope you don't get deterred from criticism, we really do try to help.  ;D

[LoGKun]

It's a little brainchild of mine about a girl with rockin' tits who changes the life of a boy she runs into.

It may not sound constructive when I say this, but I promise you it is. This sentence not only makes your comic sound horribly stupid, but it makes you sound like a complete asshole. Don't ever describe your comic to anyone that way. Women make up an enormous percentage of webcomic readership and most of them would be bothered by that. Some of the men too.

And when I read the dialogue, I have to wonder if you've ever had a conversation with a woman. No woman doesn't know when a man is staring at her chest, no one is that stupid, and even if they were it's a horrible cliche to have characters too dumb to tie their shoelaces. Cliche and uninteresting. On top of that, I have absolutely no interest in the male character either. He's just Typical Horndog X. If you're going to do a comic with a lot of dialogue, and it's either that or you're about to shift into porn, then you should spend some time listening to how people talk. Go to a coffee shop or something, go by yourself, talk to no one you don't have to do, and just listen to the conversations around you. When you're with your friends, keep your mouth shut as much as you can and pay attention to the way they talk. I don't mean the story they're telling, I mean the words they choose, the words they don't, the way they stress some syllables and not others, the pauses, the hesitations, what they say when they mean something else, how often they interrupt each other, what they say when listening to someone else, what they say when they agree, what they say when they don't, how they change subject, pauses in the conversation. People speak in a very distinct way but most people never bother to understand it.

Also, the pacing drags.

And you should never ever ever ever EVER explain details of your story in your comments. If it isn't on the page, it isn't in the story. Comments are not to explain what's going on in the story, what the characters' names are, where they are, why they're doing what they're doing...that's why you're making the story. Any good webcomic can be read start to finish without ever once looking at a comment.

Your line art is too shaky for such a simplistic cartoony style and your style itself is drowning in manga while reaching for a Disney life raft. It all looks like you were trying to get the pages done in under an hour. I agree with Gar that your panels are too white, but I'd say the solution isn't to bandage it with gradient fills, but actually drawing some backgrounds. One panel on a page with backgrounds does a lot. If you admit your backgrounds are lazy, it means you knew you were doing something wrong and just didn't care. Spend more time drawing what you're drawing, readers will forgive a longer schedule more than lazy art. It might be strange as an animator to be told to draw slower, but comics aren't animation...in structure, in theory, and you have to draw your own backgrounds.

See, I don't think you understand my sense of humor. I'm really just joking around with the whole rockin' tits thing. I've even said it to many of my female friends, and they found it funny, not sexist.

Yes, I've had conversations with women. most of my friends are women. My room mate is a woman. I dated at least 3 women before I realized I'm not attracted to women. I realize your comment there probably was not meant to be a personal attack, but it kind of came off like that. Rather than bringing who I talk to in question, keep it to "Your writing sucks". There is a lot to Laverne that makes her this clueless, and I promise it will come. Remember, my comic is only 6 pages long thus far and I haven't had the time to really go places with it yet. The characters are going to be the way they are, 2d and flat, because they haven't been developed yet.

Also, don't take my comments in the comment box as a substitute for information in the comic. I'm not going to put anything in there I'm not putting in the comic.

And I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by my art style being "too shaky" I sketch over the original sketches because I happen to be fond of the style it makes. when I finally get the new page finished, I'm planning on revamping the style of the comic to match more the style I use on my deviantART page, and like I've said before, the art is a bit rushed. I have to try to juggle drawing the comic with work and my boyfriend. It's a bit difficult which is why I'm going to reduce my update days. I'm aware of how to draw. Believe it or not, animators have to take drawing classes as well. I know I need to add backgrounds, It's just not a strong point of mine and until I find a nice solution, I'm doing what I can.

I really appreciate your critiques. I'm keeping them in mind. I just felt the need to defend myself.

[LoGKun]

Yeah, I have to agree with pretty much everything Gibson said as well.  "A girl with rockin' tits" is a very very bad intro, unless you are aiming for porn.  Also you describe the comic as a guy meets a girl with rockin' tits on a bus and saves her life, yet here they are meeting at the bus-stop.  Also, I apologize, but "rockin' tits" is in the eye of the beholder.  Freakishly large, droopy breasts are not rockin' in my book, they're just freakishly large and droopy.  Rockin' to me is more along the lines of Kate Beckinsale.

The male lead character is a dog, the female lead is an exceptionally stupid bimbo.  You may want to give them something at least slightly interesting to keep readers coming back.

Aside from all that, I do want to say welcome.  I hope you don't get deterred from criticism, we really do try to help.  ;D

Large breasts sag more as gravity pulls on them :\ That's kind of how it goes.

[Rob]

Don't feel bad about the criticism man. You kinda opened the door asking for constructive criticism.

Me personally. Whenever I ask for criticism I prepare to reap the whirlwind but one thing I make sure of is to put it in context.

With my site we are trying to be professional comics creators in every sense of the word. I hope to one day earn enough doing it to make a living. So I've set the bar of criticism pretty high... which is why I haven't asked for much from here... because I already know things aren't exactly where I want them to be and I won't be looking for criticism until I DO feel things are where they should be. Then that's when that advice is of the most value. Because it gives you different perspectives and insights into what you've already done and feeds your thoughts for the future.

But the context is important.

If I was just doing it as a hobby. Or I was making a serious go of it but didn't expect to make a career of it... maybe see it as a stepping stone or something, then not only would I be more inclined to ask for feedback earlier, but I would make sure people understood what I was looking for as far as feedback goes.

Your site is a mess. With 6 strips there isn't much to judge in story so far and many stories start out rough. Your art could use some polish but I'm the last guy who should be saying that as one of my comics is arted by me and I mostly just trace stuff from my Google Image searches so I can tell bad jokes.

You have a lot of work to do. So when you ask for constructive criticism like you did you sorta opened the flood gates and might not have been quite ready to reap that whirlwind.

Sorry. I think I can speak for everyone here in the community when I say above all we tend to value truth. So we don't sugarcoat a whole lot here. I hope you can find some value in all that information and maybe move forward towards your goals for the comic, whatever they may be. Just remember; it's like eating an elephant... one bite at a time.... but fast enough so the meat doesn't go rancid before you finish.  ;D

[Gibson]

See, I don't think you understand my sense of humor. I'm really just joking around with the whole rockin' tits thing. I've even said it to many of my female friends, and they found it funny, not sexist.

No, I think you're the one who doesn't understand. The internet doesn't know you or what a great guy people think you are. We're not here to get to know you, we're here to read the letters you form into words. If your sense of humour doesn't translate well into type, that's your issue to fix, not mine and not anyone else's.

Remember, my comic is only 6 pages long thus far and I haven't had the time to really go places with it yet. The characters are going to be the way they are, 2d and flat, because they haven't been developed yet.

How much time do you think you get? How many pages of dull, flat characters do people have to read before they're justified in giving up? Six pages is more than enough time to breathe life and personality into a character. The reader should give a shit about them from the first page. "It just hasn't gotten there yet!" is a flimsy excuse for a lack of effort. And if you didn't give information in your comments that you hadn't in the comic, I wouldn't have said you did. You can call these things defending yourself, but it's really just not being able to take the criticism you asked us to give.

[Gar]

Again, Gibson's not being nice, but neither is he being wrong. You're a self-confessed newbie, so having this stuff pointed out to you early on is a good thing.

Very few internet folks will stick around for more than a page if there's not something on that page to immediately grab them, and they're not shy about telling you if they don't like your comic. Anyway, don't get discouraged, but remember that this is meant to be a concise artform - something interesting on every page, and ideally something interesting in every panel.

[mcfadyn]

I'm with Gibson on this one.   Good storytelling should be felt on the very first page.  You shouldn't have to plug 6, 7 or 8 pages into a story and not know who they are.  As the writer, you should know every damn thing about them and it's your job to tell the reader about these people.  If you're not doing that, you're not doing your job.  Simple.  As far as the tity talk and that all goes... your female friends may not have been insulted (which is great) but that talk IS sexist.  Just because a couple of women didn't slap you in the face, doesn't mean that talk isn't sexist.  The internet is a great place for trollin' and shit talk because of anonymity, but that doesn't mean you need to be part of the problem.  Say you're trying to go somewhere with your comic and you go up to someone with the hopes of selling it or getting it printed and whatnot.   I know you're thinking, 'Of course I wouldn't say that to THOSE guys'... but listen, if you wouldn't say that shit to them, don't say it on a message board.  I know comparing us to a book deal is a stretch, but the way you should handle your comic and any PR work you do shouldn't change.  That's my 2 (canadian) cents