Webcomics Community

Ever since I started this community I find myself more and more inclined to censor myself. Not because I really care all that much what people think of me; but mostly because the blowback every time I say something dumb or provocative can get wearying. And since this site has made me marginally more noticeable in the community the blowback has increased.

Today I was checking my Twitter feed and I saw a number of Tweets from Kris Straub and Scott Kurtz discussing how they are refusing to shake hands at PAX East this week and even Gabe from Penny Arcade got in on the joke by saying something along the lines of "There will be no handshaking at PAX, if you wish to greet someone make your hands into fists and cross your arms in front of your chest."

For those of you not Trek aware this is how Klingons generally greet one another.

Then I read this from Scott's Twitter:

"Annnddd... I've already refused my first handshake. Hope I didn't offend the guy from Rooster Teeth."

Now some of you may think you know how I feel about Scott. But I doubt you get all of it. I've met Scott in person a couple times and in person he is extremely nice and polite. He is funny, talented and a guy I would love to get to know better.

I've only met Kris once but he seems like a very nice, quiet, almost meek sort of guy.

But even the nicest person can come off like a world class a-hole in text communication. The context we lose, facial expressions, tone of voice, hand gesticulations... all of these things really muddy the intended message.

And I sometimes wonder if folks really understand that? Even folks who are so used to dealing with the public like Scott and Kris?

As some of you know, I used to work with the Rooster Teeth guys. When I read that last Tweet I was immediately offended. Much of this no handshake stuff is coming up in light of discussion that the "Norovirus" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norovirus) is making the rounds in Boston. It's spread by food or water or yes, contact contaminated with fecal matter. But it is a very common stomach virus and less than 300 people die from it a year; usually the very old or very young; in other words, not the type of person you might expect to see at a con.

If you check the article I linked you will see that it's actually not that big of a deal. Is it fun to be puking your guts out for a few days no of course not. But isn't risking that somewhat the price we pay for hocking our filthy wares at conventions and courting those hardcore fans?

And the message seems to be, from text communication "I think you might be covered in fecal matter and therefore I choose not to shake hands with you. Hope you don't hold it against me." When I know the real message is more along the lines of "I really don't want to get sick: I'm so tired of getting sick at conventions."

Further Tweets from Kris and Scott on the subject:

"@krisstraub it's not about being a dick! it's about having ONE CON I'm not sick for weeks afterward. find the guy not washing and get mad at him"

"@pvponline @krisstraub what is it withtgia attitude people give us. Were not obligated to shake anyone's fucking hand. #toughshitsforthem"

Yeah that last one didn't help much.

Scott and Kris's fans will no doubt defend the position as one that keeps the object of their fandom healthy and well within their rights (especially if they aren't going to PAX East and won't be one of the people refused a handshake). Folks who are not as fond of them or don't really know their work may indeed be offended. May in fact see this as a real life example of the often referred to reputation Scott has in general and Kris shares through association.

My first reaction was to Tweet something along the lines of "@pvponline and @krisstraub are refusing to shake hands with people at PAX. Let's see how that works out for them.

But I didn't.

A few months ago I certainly would have though. And this made me sort of wonder about a few things and I will pose these questions to you my fellow community members; so you may ponder along with me.

Is an unwillingness to engage flagrant idiocy on the internet because I'm no longer anonymous and am tired of defending myself from the ramparts while my true intentions attempt to escape through hidden tunnels just to avoid being captured; a sign of maturity, weariness, fear of making enemies that will adversely affect my own webcomic aspirations or fear of alienating some of you?

Do you think there should be a double standard for people on the internet who boldly shed their anonymity and take responsibility for their words? Consider this question in light of the fact that most on the internet do not have to take responsibility for their words. Now consider this question in light of the inequities of text based communication. In short, should real folks be cut a bit more slack when they say stupid shit on the internet?

Are we allowed to be offended by the hidden message? I've never been a fan of marketing (nothing personal marketing people I just consider what you do a form of pure evil). But you can learn a lot about the way the world works if you study the lessons marketing has to offer. Often it is not the message you have to watch out for but the implied narrative that comes from the message.

For example: The age old Allstate Insurance mantra "You're in good hands with Allstate."

Sure this says to the consumer "if you do business with us we will take care of you." But it also implies the opposite. In that it also says, "if you aren't with us there is a very good chance you will not be in 'good hands'."

Is refusing to shake my hand because you think I may be contaminated with fecal matter and don't want to get sick something I'm allowed to be offended by? Does it imply that you are clean and I may not be? Does it imply that you are too important to risk ill health by shaking my hand? Does that in turn imply that, since I am willing to shake hands that I am therefore less important?

It seems pretty clear that Scott feels he does not owe the people who come to see him a handshake. What do you think? If I travel a long distance at great expense or even if I live next door; I've spent money to come to PAX to meet with people, buy products and if I'm a fan and I've gone through all that to stand in front of you and share in your creation, do you feel that I'm owed a handshake when I stick out my hand? Is this something that one can owe another person? Is anything at all owed to con goers by those they've come to see and buy from? Is what is owed strictly limited to what is paid for?

And lastly, what does this bode for conventions in general and webcomics specifically? If creators across the board start refusing human contact with their fans and when fans complain assert that the fan is not owed anything how will this affect the way fans see creators and the business they run?

Anyway, rainy day thoughts. I know what my answers are to these questions and I'll happily post them if anyone is interested but being the open minded fellow I am I would actually like to know what some of you think before I etch my thoughts in stone... or font as the case is.  :)

Honestly, shaking hands is over rated. I can visually notice there's not a sword in someone's hand.

Unless it is an invisible sword.

I don't think a handshake is even appropriate in this circumstance.  You approach the table, admit you're obsessed with their comic, pay them for an autograph then move along.  Where does handshake even fit into that formula?  I love cons, I love meeting people that inspire me, but I'm not going to pretend like I'm a unique case.  You rock, you influence my art, here's five bucks, will you please sign this book I just bought?

The Klingon greeting is definitely the way to go if anything.

Hey Rob!

Quote from: Rob on March 25, 2010, 06:14:38 PM
Ever since I started this community I find myself more and more inclined to censor myself.

Quote from: Rob on March 25, 2010, 06:14:38 PM
Is an unwillingness to engage flagrant idiocy on the internet because I'm no longer anonymous and am tired of defending myself from the ramparts while my true intentions attempt to escape through hidden tunnels just to avoid being captured; a sign of maturity, weariness, fear of making enemies that will adversely affect my own webcomic aspirations or fear of alienating some of you?

It was a written rule that when you go to a convention for a portfolio review that you are not to speak ill of another creator or title. The rule being that the editor may have worked on the title or is good friends with the creator and a slip of your opinion just put you on the wrong side of an argument. The internet made everything a giant portfolio review.

Regarding handshakes:
To me, the debate is more about empathy. I understand the position of a person who doesn't wish to get ill but I also understand the position of the person who wants to feel acknowledged by the comic creator that they admire. The handshake is a gesture that holds quite a bit of symbolism. If Jim Lee refused to shake my hand, I would be crushed. And if I saw Jim Lee shake Erik Larsen's hand after he refused to shake mine, I would be riled up. I know that I'm no Erik Larsen and Jim Lee does not owe me a handshake... but I still want to be acknowledged.

Besides that, I'm petty and I will hold it against him.  ;D

Possible solutions:

• the fist bump.
• a discreet supply of hand-sanitizer

Quote from: LegendWoodsman on March 25, 2010, 08:03:39 PM
Possible solutions:

• the fist bump.

Agreed.

Gloves!

Actual they have made a point of mentioning that the Norovirus is unaffected by hand sanitizing products and Gary Tyrell of Fleen offered to bring Scott some gloves. To my knowledge Scott has not replied.

And I think a fist pound is still skin to skin contact. I wouldn't presume to answer for anyone... but I imagine that if you aren't doing handshakes you probably aren't doing hugs, high fives, chest bumps, noogies, playing the old "I've got your nose" trick or fist pounds.

Which makes me wonder how an adherent to this policy would react when some smoking hot cosplay girl in dental floss rolls up and asks you to sign her boobs (as someone who has spent a couple hours hanging out at the Blind Ferret booth I assure you it happens more than you probably think)?

Just more info for ya. And more questions.

Quote from: NoahRodenbeek on March 25, 2010, 07:58:18 PM
I don't think a handshake is even appropriate in this circumstance.  You approach the table, admit you're obsessed with their comic, pay them for an autograph then move along.  Where does handshake even fit into that formula?  I love cons, I love meeting people that inspire me, but I'm not going to pretend like I'm a unique case.  You rock, you influence my art, here's five bucks, will you please sign this book I just bought?

The Klingon greeting is definitely the way to go if anything.

Noah I must congratulate you in that you have achieved a rare feat when it comes to my perception. You are either so sincere or so sarcastic I have no idea what you are actually saying here. I mean it. I'm completely baffled.

You Sir, are an enigma! 8)

Quote from: LegendWoodsman on March 25, 2010, 08:03:39 PM
It was a written rule that when you go to a convention for a portfolio review that you are not to speak ill of another creator or title. The rule being that the editor may have worked on the title or is good friends with the creator and a slip of your opinion just put you on the wrong side of an argument. The internet made everything a giant portfolio review.

So that's one vote for maturity then? ;D

I think that it's always better to avoid needless conflict, especially over the internet.  It's a waste of energy that could be used better in creative ventures, and, like LW said, you don't know who you might offend.

As for the handshaking thing... seriously?  It's common courtesy if someone offers their hand to you that you accept it (unless you don't like them).  They will just end up alienating their fans.  This Norovirus must be some serious crap if it's scared them that much.  In most cases, if you take care of yourself, then you can have as much physical contact as you want with someone who is sick (obviously, there are exceptions... which I guess this virus must be one of them).

I mean it sincerely.  Where does the handshake come into play in the process of the convention meeting?  I think it would feel more natural not to shake hands, and preferable to fist bump or Klingon greet.  Something.  The handshake is like you're meeting with your physician or your boss or something.

Sorry for being enigmatic, I meant to be straight forward.

I think Scott may have been the only person at the first Dallas Webcomic Expo that I did *not* high-five.  That wasn't out of malice - I just didn't have the opportunity to ask.

In any case, I don't feel like people are obligated to shake my hand or anything - but if I extend my hand, I expect to be met in kind - and yeah, I'll be a little insulted if I'm left hanging with no explanation.  If they say, "Oh, I'm not shaking hands for X reason," then it's no big deal.

I just think, in this particular case, the two are saying, "Yeah, we're doing something unorthodox and slightly rude.  Here's our reason. We DARE you to be upset.  Seriously.  We DARE you."

Seems like a silly use of Twitter.

It's okay to kindly decline handshakes. That was a point in this series of business classes I recently finished taking... apparently no one (read: most people, y'all) in the Fashion biz shakes hands because they're constantly in contact with so many people.

Personally, I don't shove my hands into all my orifices after touching foreign objects/other people, I never get sick, and I always have hand sanitizer around...so I always accept handshakes. Though unless I'm SOOPER EXCITED I'm not likely to initiate one. I think it'd feel awkward at a con, anyway.

Anyway, one shouldn't get all up in arms about HANDSHAKES. Refusing to meet your eye or brushing you off completely, THAT'S upsetting. If someone doesn't want to shake your hand, but otherwise seems cool, it's probably health concerns. Shouldn't let your personal insecurities come into it, if you have them.

Quote from: Senshuu on March 26, 2010, 12:21:52 AM
Shouldn't let your personal insecurities come into it, if you have them.

If I didn't have my insecurities, I'd have nothing to write about.  ;)

From their posts, it sounds as though they have gotten sick from cons several times already.  If that is indeed the case, then I think their decision is certainly justified.  And if they want to risk putting off fans, then that's their choice.

I also think that the Internet is no excuse to be a dick.  If you were offended, then by all means hold them accountable, lower your opinion of them, call them out on it, etc.  Or, you know, be the bigger man and just let it go.  Showing decency and self control on the Internet is something to be proud of, not questioned. ;)

Quote from: Rob on March 25, 2010, 06:14:38 PM
Ever since I started this community I find myself more and more inclined to censor myself. Not because I really care all that much what people think of me; but mostly because the blowback every time I say something dumb or provocative can get wearying. And since this site has made me marginally more noticeable in the community the blowback has increased.

I get that.
I've censored myself a few times over at the Webcomic List forums since I got made a moderator and then an admin over there, because I'm not just represeting myself now, which became even more important with the situation from the awards. How would you feel getting an email telling you that you won an award, from someone that called you an obnoxious hack on the very site that's issuing it? Not that there are many people I would call that anyway, even if I did feel like I was in a position to be brutally honest.

I do wonder though if I'd be quite as self censoring if it wasn't someone else's site, if I was in the position you're in.

Penny Arcade has weighed in further on the discussion now.
(http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/817651922_mUmYz-L.jpg)

Those questions I posed about the implications for conventions and webcomics business seem a little more important now don't they?

Tycho also discusses the subject very briefly in the news post here. (http://www.penny-arcade.com/)

Amanda, did you get pictures of all the high fives?

You could totally do a BNR about a tiny, invading alien armada getting slapped out of existence by webcomic people!

Maybe a sign at the beginning of the line or on the table that says "No handshakes, please. I don't wanna get sick! I have a very weak immune system!" And maybe a tshirt.

I don't recall handshakes being a big part of conventions, either. Then again, maybe that's just because I'm not a particularly well known artist, so no one's terrifically interested in shaking my hand.  ;) Usually the contact between me and the fans is limited to an occasional exchange of goods for money, and a smile and a thank you.

I would think there is a good way and a bad way to get across the idea you don't want to shake hands for health reasons. It's entirely possibly to do so politely and without getting anyone's back up. For instance, when someone smiles apologetically and says to me they don't want to shake hands with me because they have a cold, I'm not offended at all. So if the PAX guests said to their fans that they're not taking the offered hand because they're concerned for their health (the fans' health, that is), it would go over much better. Also, I really like the alternate suggestion of the Klingon greeting. This is a nerdfest, after all. It's like a secret handshake, and still a great way to interact with the fans.

Quote from: RobDo you think there should be a double standard for people on the internet who boldly shed their anonymity and take responsibility for their words? Consider this question in light of the fact that most on the internet do not have to take responsibility for their words. Now consider this question in light of the inequities of text based communication. In short, should real folks be cut a bit more slack when they say stupid shit on the internet?

No. People should be held accountable for what they say. But they should also be given the opportunity to apologize or take back their words if they wish, and anyone they might be apologizing to should have the good grace to accept it and move on. We have been communicating in text for a long time. Authors of books, letters, newspapers, etc. have all managed for centuries to communicate without the benefit of face-to-face cues. We've just gotten lazy about it, and it's about time we, as an electronic-based society, started making better use of our versatile language again. 

QuoteAmanda, did you get pictures of all the high fives?

Alas, most of them were drive-by high-fives.

You know, I think the biggest thing we should find offensive is the idea that people charge for autographs! Are these two muttonheads charging for their autographs? If so, that's what makes them massive douchebags. Who is so fantastic that their mere signature is worth money? Way to go, Picasshole!

Honestly, I don't know how anyone doesn't see how this could be insulting. When a person offers their hand to you, as has been said, it's part of the social contract to shake it. Not doing so signifies something, whether you want it to or not. In this case, it does kinda smack of superiority. "I know you're here because you're a big fan and you've paid money to be here and you've stood in line for a while to see us and you read our stuff and buy our merch and that helps us pay our bills so we don't have to have a real job, but I'm afraid I can't give you that moment of feeling that we are equals because you might have cooties." Do a fist bump instead, people get that. Or just bite the bullet and shake the hand. Being a success in your field has a price and shaking hands with the people who make you a success is a really small price. I can understand not wanting to get sick, I really can, but that's not the only or even the most important consideration. We do owe our fans something, even if it's as simple as pretending that they're not icky. If you get sick after every convention, maybe you shouldn't go.

My girlfriend next to me is saying this, and I don't disagree: "Any time someone famous decides their fans have to go through a special procedure to interact with them is just pure douchebaggery, because the only people who actually get to do that are heads of state and royalty."

But, hey, to the other question of whether people should be given a larger berth on the internet, I think it's just a question of being open and knowing that you don't know them, and you don't have all the facts. As far as censoring yourself goes, that's tricky. I think people should censor themselves, but not to the point that they stop themselves from saying things they think should be said. This issue, though, is one where keeping your mouth more or less shut...or at least not jumping headlong into the fray...is not the worst idea in the world.

As far as I am aware, neither of them is charging for their autograph. The only people I've heard that do this practice at cons tend to be guest celebrities, of the in tv/movies variety.

At any rate, it's common knowledge that comic/geek culture conventions mean hundreds of people crammed in small rooms and line ups. And if the people in those crowded rooms and lines are anything like half of the geeks who come into the store I work at (protip: they absolutely are), then they don't shower, don't know what deodorant is, cough/sneeze on their hands which they then wipe on their shirt or pants, proceed to touch everything afterwards and have no concept of personal space. I am not surprised when they say they'd like to come home from a con just once and not be sick--we send people to cons to sell stuff, and 90% of them come back with what we've dubbed 'Con-Flu.' This convention's particular brand of con-flu (involves puking and shitting your guts out--sounds an awful lot like food poisoning, possibly one of the worst experiences I have ever had) really sounds like something that should be avoided at all costs.

I'm not excusing how they've gone about it, but let's think about this--if you walked up to someone at a con and tried to shake their hand, and they said 'Sure, hold that thought!' and proceeded to pull out a pair of laytex gloves so they could return your handshake, how much more NOT insulted would you be than if they asked you to do the lame Klingon greeting instead? Or, how insulted would you NOT be if, after shaking your hand, you watched your favourite artist whip out a bottle of hand sanitizer or disinfectant handy-wipes and slather it all of their own hands? Honestly, as long as you are apologetic enough in person, people understand.

At any rate, second question answer: it is possible to still say what you want or need to say while keeping a level head. Back when I was an admin on smackjeeves, I can't remember how many times I wanted to bitch someone out or call them a moron because they were being ridiculous or were just plain wrong. But I didn't, and 90% of those people came around to my point of view, both out of AND in the private admin boards. I'm not saying I have a magic power in where people agree with me after talking to me (that would be awesome), but by presenting your problem or disagreement in a rational and thoughtful manner, people tend to listen instead of deciding that you're a crazy drama-monger or a dictator. The key is to present yourself in a way that makes people think 'wow, we should listen to him/her! They sound like they know what they're talking about!'

My guess is they weren't charging for their autographs. They were selling books and quick commissions and autographing said work.

I think.... and I may be mistaken here... but we may have some gender bias in the results sample.

Are handshakes a bigger deal to guys than girls? I know Amanda is more in line with the guys and Noah with the girls... are they outliers?

Do guys think a handshake is more important than girls?

Gib your girlfriend is very succinct in her appraisal of the issue. Well done.

But...

QuoteThis issue, though, is one where keeping your mouth more or less shut...or at least not jumping headlong into the fray...is not the worst idea in the world.

Why? Can you elaborate?

Conventions are often as much about business networking as they are about fandom. Will creators who refuse to shake hands with fans also refuse handshakes from vendors who can offer them great deals on their printing costs or mocking up a prototype of that plushie character they've always wanted to sell?

When the fans see creators shaking hands with vendors and fellow creators they know during that business/networking aspect of the con and then refusing to shake their hands.. how do you think that will go over?

And lastly, I'm kind of surprised no one has taken this on, on a more global perspective. Penny Arcade essentially issued an edict with that comic establishing what some might say is a "rule" governing the behavior of thousands upon thousands of fans and creators. Some rules "no sleeping in public", "no nudity"  are rules that have come about over the years at conventions and are generally accepted. Do you think that this "no touching" whatsoever rule will catch on and how will it affect the business side of webcomics?

I'm going to offer the first of my opinions on these wide ranging subjects right here.

If I were exhibiting at PAX I would tell them to cram it. As much as I love Penny Arcade (and I've met Mike and Jerry and they are VERY nice guys whose success and accomplishments I admire and respect greatly) I find the idea that they can dictate whether or not I shake someone's hand very offensive to my free will/personal liberty or whatever you want to call it. If they didn't like it they could refund my exhibitor fee and my expenses and send me on my way. But adding a rule like that to the game at the last minute is way beyond anything I would tolerate and I wouldn't attend a con that contractually tried to control such interactions.

I will shake hands with anyone who wants to shake hands with me. Period. If I get sick because of it that's my problem. If someone else gets sick because they choose to shake my hand then that is their problem. Any time someone tries to codify personal choice or personal responsibility it chills me to the core.

I also think, should this no touching thing become widespread the implications for smaller webcomics will be more hurtful than for the big guys. If any of you have watched Howard Taylor's talk about the webcomic's business (http://www.opensourcetv.tv/video/7.html) you know that the bear we have to kill to make us successful enough to survive off of our work is to get those 1000 true, hardcore fans. That's the one thing that no one who gives webcomic advice can tell us how to do. But my instinct tells me that adding the Klingon greeting and refusing human contact with your fans will not facilitate this.

Also... has anyone considered what it would be like to return the Klingon salute all day long for three days to fan after fan? Or is it a one sided thing where the fan is expected to perform this salute and the creator just sort of nods in acknowledgement?

Quote from: Rob on March 26, 2010, 08:04:07 PMBut...

QuoteThis issue, though, is one where keeping your mouth more or less shut...or at least not jumping headlong into the fray...is not the worst idea in the world.

Why? Can you elaborate?

If for no other reason than, on issues like this that are kinda just knucklehead stuff, so many people are going to be spouting off on it that you end up looking like just as big a crackpot as everyone else. What I think is interesting is that you've couched this whole thing in a bigger issue, and that is of looking at how your reaction is different than it would have been in the past. Plus, raising it here saves you from jumping into Twitter's World of Twats.

My reaction aside I'm much more interested in what this sort of thing will mean for the future. I actually wish.... for the first time ever... I wish I could poll fans on the subject.

I wonder if the wonderful Wendy might be inclined to try and set up a poll for readers only (no creators) at The Webcomics List to see how fans might react to being refused a handshake?

Oh Wendy Dear?

LOL. I'm gonna PM her.

As mentioned previously Gary Tyrell had offered to bring Scott Kurtz some gloves for his use at PAX East. Yesterday during his daily update he discussed briefly the Tweet regarding the Norovirus from the PAX Twitter and enthusiastically advocated (threatened) hand washing. I find it interesting that not once did he say he would not shake someone's hand; nor did he address the issue of those who had.

http://www.fleen.com/archives/2010/03/25/sometimes-the-themes-just-demand-to-be-used/

I'm glad you're letting me off the hook for not jumping in publicly on this Gib but this thread and my ponderings would quickly become part of the public discourse if anyone who has the heft to bring such things to light discovers it. It was a chance I was ok taking because I really am interested in the subject. My knee jerk reaction to being offended to the way it has been presented is running a distant second.

That said, I've also never been afraid to roll around in the muck with the pigs if things get ugly on the internet. If there is any chance this sort of thing will hurt the community and/or smaller comics looking for an audience then they absolutely should have been called on it... both for the idea/rule and the 'tude that came with it.

To put another one of my answers on the board I will tell you that shaking hands is pretty important to me. If someone refuses to shake my hand, even if they say something like "I don't want to get sick so I'm not shaking hands" it would make me feel slighted. If they said they were sick and didn't want me to get sick I'd be more understanding but I've also always felt that if I still want to shake you hand in spite of that you should indulge me because it's me taking the risk. My choice.

On the flipside I've often told people I didn't want to shake hands with I was sick. I'm not going to lie. I'm not proud of it but I've done it. In the few instances when I was actually sick and I run into someone I would shake hands with I've felt guilty just by telling them we shouldn't shake because I'm sick. I feel like I'm letting them down because it's something they expect from me... that camaraderie.

I can say that much of my affection for the community and specifically certain creators was their willingness to pal around with me and talk with me like a peer. I would never shake the hand of a clerk at a convenience store or a cashier at the deli but when I'm communing with someone whose art I am passionate about and am supporting that art I expect to be treated a certain way and as a "customer" doesn't do it. And if someone were to sell me a book, sign it or sketch in it or whatever and then refuse my handshake and then indicate that they didn't "owe" me said handshake they wouldn't have me as a fan much longer. I might continue to read their work as long as it was free but I wouldn't go out of my way to promote or support it and I certainly wouldn't be buying anything else from them.

I also wonder how much of this is cultural? I know people from outside the US tend to think of us as all one nation but the country really is very different from state to state and city to city. My military background which was 20 years ago has instilled in me a lifetime of expectations when it comes to things like handshakes and greetings. In the service these things aren't just about saying hello they are about respect and shared experiences and fellowship.

I think all of this is very thought provoking and seeing that there are quite a few people who see the con experience as more of a sort of retail exchange has really made me think.  :-\

You know, there is a difference in what your initial reaction was and what you posted here, and it's the kind of thing that would make the internet a much more tolerable place: questioning yourself. The biggest thing about all the ridiculous internet braggadocio is that everyone is absolutely right in their opinions and never backs down. I've been guilty of it myself. It overshadows and intimidates any kind of real dialogue and just gets everyone on edge and leads to the kind of hesitation to express opinions that your first post talked about. I mean, which is more productive?

"Scott Kurtz won't shake hands! What a [expletive] sucking [expletive]!"

"Scott Kurtz has decided to avoid handshakes for fear of contracting a disease. He may not mean it, but in my opinion, this is rude behaviour and will end up alienating fans."

I guess what I'm saying is that the problem is less about having unflattering opinions than it is about eloquent and reasoned opinions versus knee-jerk blather. I'm not trying to absolve anything, but it would be nice if more people more often would react to things the way you did to this.

You know.. I think you may have something there. It isn't easy to be eloquent on the internet these days. Especially with 140 character limitations in some cases.

I wonder what would have happened had I Twittered something akin to your more measured statement though. Part of me thinks that the response would be the same but part of me almost wonders what it is they would have to complain about if I said it that way.

Interesting.  8)

A few further thoughts:

1) Having lived through a SARS outbreak here in Toronto, I am confident that as far as the non-handshaking policy goes, this too shall pass. In our post-SARS city we still have some of the relics around like multiple hand sanitizing stations in nearly every public building, but other than that things went right back to normal with relative ease. No one goes around wearing those stupid masks anymore. Creators and fans will go back to shaking hands just like always.

2) Personally, I would not refuse to shake a hand offered to me, unless I was sick myself. But truly, I just don't get a lot of that at cons. Lots of friendly interaction, but not a lot of hand shaking. Then again, maybe that's because I'm not the sort to initiate a handshake, except under more businesslike circumstances (cons are business, but they shouldn't feel that way).

3) Just because Scott Kurtz wants to do something doesn't mean the rest of us will follow. Not only will shaking hands continue, but so *sigh* will glomping.

4) If you think think this is stupid, you should hear some of the zero tolerance rules about kids touching other kids at schools. Grade schools I mean, not high schools. Makes me crazy.

We do live in a society that undervalues sickness. I've read that a little more precaution on our parts (sneezing into our elbows, not out hands. Taking a day off from work when we're sick instead of going in and spreading the germs around. That sort of thing) would actually increase our productivity instead of decrease it because we'd better isolate the sickness.

Seriously, I had N1H1 and food poisoning. I don't blame anyone for wanting to avoid that sort of agony. Not only is it not fun, but it renders you more or less helpless. I'm sure someone like Kurtz has a nice buffer, but wouldn't you rather he be able to work on his comic when he gets back from the con instead of work on puking his liver up through his nose?

I'm not sure what "undervaluing sickness" means, but as far as I can tell, North American society is incredibly germaphobic. Everything is anti-bacterial and there are H1N1 vaccination stations in grocery stores. Every time a cool new disease with a fun acronym comes along, the media whores itself on it for weeks to let you know that you will, in fact, die from it, and then goes on to list everything that you can possibly do to prevent it. This kind of attention can't help but induce paranoia.

I'm pretty sure 'undervaluing sickness' means that you're often expected to work through your illness: Particularly retail and even more so in the restaurant business(which honestly doesn't make sense to me, since they're handling FOOD). I suppose it doesn't help that from school to job you have only x amount of sick days, so you need to ask yourself "Can I really afford to call off now? What if I need it later in the year?".

I have a friend who goes to conventions all the time, and neither he nor his clients get sick all the time.  Maybe my friend has a mutant healing factor or something.  He is kinda weird.

Exactly what I mean. We have all this more or less useless "anti-bacterial" product out there because of the cultural "work ethic" where you're expected to work no matter what.

I have kids. Dodging illness is impossible. Schools are germ factories.

Do you refuse to shake your kids' hands?

What I'm saying is that sometimes getting sick is just part of what you do. I don't think anyone here has said people should work sick, but at the same time, if there is a risk of getting sick in what you do, you do it. And I'm with JR, I've been going to cons and I've known people who go to cons for 20 years and I don't know anyone who gets sick from it on anything near a regular basis. Maybe these guys are just kinda sickly?

There's sick, and there's sick. I'm not troubled by colds. But an outbreak of stomach flu? Yeah, that's pretty unpleasant. I'll be more cautious if I know I'm in the middle of that kind of thing. I won't barricade myself and my family in my house or anything, but I'll certainly be more aware of where I put my hands, and I'll be washing them regularly. It's not paranoia, just precautionary common sense. Like buckling your seatbelt, or checking your fire alarm.

I avoid acid. Hydrocloric and sulfuric mostly.  I know I know, but that's just how I roll.

As for censoring yourself, yeah, I do it all the time.  Everything you do these days can come back to bite you, and often does.  Companies can legally reject your application, refuse your promotion, or even fire you for your online conduct.  Even if you're a stripper who can't bring herself to tell her boyfriend, somewhere along the line someone's gonna ID you on the street, or stumble into your place of work.  Censoring yourself is probably the healthiest thing you can do.

As to shaking hands, I'm going to shake the hand that's put before me.  If I was in a conference with the President and he stuck his hand out for me to shake, you better believe I'm not going to say something stupid like "Oh no, Mr. President of the Free World, I'm not shaking hands today. Don't want to get sick."  And if in that same conference I put my hand out you can bet your bippie the President would shake it.  Common courtesy means something.  There are exceptions, of course, but I don't believe having a popular comic qualifies.

But please... hold the acid.

I remember the flu-epidemic in the aftermath of PAX last year being a pretty big deal.  It seems understandable that they would want to avoid handshaking, but, as I stated before, I have a hard time seeing how handshaking fits into the convention process to begin with.  Why is this such a big deal anyways?

My tow cents on self(or any kind of)-censorship: don't do it.  If you're holding back your opinion, what's the point of participating in an open forum?  However, it's a double-edged sword.  It's just as important for the reader to keep a thick skin as it is for the writer to remain polite.

It's funny but after reading the definition of the Norovirus on Wikipedia and seeing how it's transmitted; if you are going to shake hands there is almost no chance of avoiding it. Realistically speaking if you don't want to get it, no human contact and no food served and prepared by others is your best shot.

The virus is special in that hand washing is only "pretty" effective; not totally effective in killing the virus. They cite a Boyscout Jamboree in which every person infected in turn went on to infect 14 others until hand washing and cleanliness measures were enacted and even then every person infected after went on to infect another 2 people anyway.

When it comes to guys like Gabe and Tycho and Scott they undoubtedly shake a lot more hands... assuming they are shaking hands, than the average con exhibitor and loads more than the average con attendee. And if you consider every handshake a pull on the slot machine of gastroenteritis your odds of getting sick are pretty much certain.

I mean, the best way not to get sick is to not stick your fingers in your mouth, nose, eyes, in some cases ears or rub them in your backside or hoo ha (or hoo hoo depending on your gender) at all or if you must don't do it without a very thorough hand washing to try and help the odds. But who has that kind of self discipline?

The thing is; I see this as pretty much the price we pay for exhibiting at cons. Like J I have two little kids in the house and they used to get me sick all the time (I think I've developed some stronger immunities as the last several months I've been illness free where as when I first moved in I rarely went more than 2 weeks without some new virus replacing the old). There is very little chance of avoiding illness in certain environments. I'm not suggesting you embrace the madness and gorge yourself on local shellfish whilst glomping fans picking your nose but going the other way and avoiding all contact isn't the way to go either.

And honestly this virus isn't the black plague or aids or something. It isn't that serious. As long as you stay hydrated you should be fine unless you have an immunodeficient disease, are a very little baby or a very old person. As someone who recently had food poisoning (about 14 months ago) so bad it almost killed me I can tell you that I got the flu a few months ago and I had to vomit a few times, I was a little achy and it was gone in 48 hours and I actually scoffed at it. I was all like "that's all you got? 48 hours, a couple of rides on the porcelain bus and some bugle music? You should be ashamed stomach flu. And you call yourself a virus."

Was it fun? No. Do I want to do it again? No. But it didn't incapacitate me and I was in no danger.

So I guess it comes down to a personal choice. Risk getting sick and keep your fans close to you or cut off human contact and risk alienating fans. I suppose the issue here is also muddied by the way it has been presented; the idea that creator's don't owe their fans such things and the con organizers attempts to unilaterally impose restrictions on human contact.

But I think that, ultimately is what it really comes down to. When someone puts their hand out are you going to shake it and risk getting sick or are you going to wave them off and risk losing a fan? I think that is the essence of the debate.

Me? As previously stated I'll shake it every time. But who knows what would happen if I started getting really sick after every con. I might reevaluate that position. I really like the idea that it's a personal choice because it really isn't an easy call to make for everyone.

I guess the big question is how much threat of disease is actually posed. Is it really common for there to be outbreaks after cons? If so, then I would agree that taking measures is wise, by more than just a handful of attendees but by the con(s) themselves. If this particular con is well-known for spreading malady, then something should be done by the conventioneers, and if it isn't, then I would say these guys are being prudent (though I still think the wiser course would be not going at all) by avoiding handshakes.

If it's a case of once or twice there was a nasty outbreak among the several jillion cons that happen each year, then I think they're being slightly unreasonable. This seems like it's more the scenario than the latter, but I have no data to support either other than this is the first time I've heard of cons being a giant outbreak cloud. Does anyone have real information on how often this has been a problem in the past?

Quote from: NoahRodenbeek on March 27, 2010, 05:16:06 PM
Why is this such a big deal anyways?

It takes two to tango Noah so it really isn't important how you feel about handshakes. It's important to your business and fanbase and reputation how the people whose handshakes you are refusing feel. You have no doubt read that quite a lot of us feel like a handshake is a moral obligation in polite society. That's just polite society. Add to it that someone has come a long distance at some significant expense to see you and support your work and they may REALLY be expecting a handshake, hug or some other show of appreciation or consideration.

So the question you have to ask yourself Noah isn't are handshakes important to me but are they important to my fans and am I willing to risk their favor by refusing such acts?

As for self censorship.

I'm ashamed to admit it but of the possible reasons I listed for why I've become more self censored lately the reason is undoubtedly this community. Every time I say something dumb or do something someone doesn't agree with I get messages telling me how I should behave and subtle threats to leave the site if I don't step in line. This is one of the main reasons I didn't want to be "the guy" at this site. I wanted the place to run itself for the most part... so I could just be me. Knuckleheaded old me.

Some background here. I don't know why but my family loves to argue. A lifetime of that and I've gotten very very good at it. There was a time I was seriously considering becoming a litigation lawyer. I have two pre-law degrees (an A.S. and a B.S.) and during my Mock Trial course I eviscerated my competition so thoroughly that after delaying until the end of class (45 minutes of requests for continuance and digging through papers) they came back two weeks later and still had nothing to challenge my strategy. My client got off a murder charge with some community service. (Please remember this was a fake trial)

So when I say I'm not afraid to get down in the muck with the pigs I really mean it. I have a lifetime of "being right" and "making my point" that instinctively suggests that I oppose viewpoints I disagree with and provide insightful and relevant evidence to support my views.

My problem is, I tend to see things as very black and white. I believe in the spirit of the law as much as I do the letter. And that my friends makes me a great debater but a shitty lawyer.

For me, debate, discourse, argument... these are the paths to enlightenment, to understanding and I've often felt that understanding your fellow man is a seriously lofty goal. Because love in general is the quest to understand and be understood. And if we all understood each other we would probably get along much better.

So when I see someone making an intelligent, coherent, cogent argument; even on the internet... man that's like honey for my bee. Especially if I disagree. I don't know if any of you have ever really changed someone's mind on a complex subject.... it isn't as common as it sounds. To take someone firmly set in an idea and through discourse provide them with evidence and examples of opposing viewpoints until you see that light go on and understanding is reached.

As many arguments as I've had... and there have been many; it's only happened to me a few times. But when it does it really is quite magical.

And I've had my own mind changed once or twice too. I like to think, because I defend my own viewpoints so strongly that I must try to be extra open minded to other ideas. So even when I'm sure about something I'll listen because you never know. If you don't listen you aren't really having an argument or debate. You are preaching. And preaching is a one way street.

No I don't go after every chowderhead with a crackpot agenda on the internet. Who has that kind of time? But when I see someone say something on a subject that I am passionate about that I am very strongly opposed to both in presentation and implementation the pull to jump head first into that fray and challenge the idea is tough to quantify.

Like say for example someone says that they aren't shaking anyone's hand at a convention because they don't want to get sick and who do the fans think they are giving them grief about it anyway because we don't owe them squat.

And yes since one of the most potent weapons on the web is snark I am certified expert marksmanship in it's use and not afraid to deploy if necessary. But for me, that sort of nonsense is just an opening salvo to a bigger debate. Man cannot argue with snark alone (that's catchy... I'll have to remember that).

So at a time in my life where I am used to making few apologies I do tend to censor myself because I want all of you to come here and bring your friends and share your knowledge with me and others without having to worry about people pointing out that this community is the one "run by that douchebag everyone hates."

So I don't get to be "me turned up to 11" all the time. I've already learned so much from all of you in this short time that I consider it a fair tradeoff. Who says old dogs can't learn new tricks?

Assuming these guys have done a few cons between this and last year's PAX, I'd say this recent no-handshake thing falls into the context of last year's PAX epidemic and could only be judged that way.  See Friday's Penny-Arcade "PAXination".  They're also suggesting a ban on dripping weeping pustules into your urethra, as well as citing the Klingon greeting's potential to further protect your body's core.  I'm just saying, this is how seriously they're taking it.

I'm going to a book signing for Penny-Arcade Volume 11 next week, and I fully intend to fist-bump them both... on their fists.

Censorship:

I totally get and respect your responsibilities as the admin.  I'm sorry if you've been getting flack for stating your opinion.  I would like to submit my own plea for you to speak your mind openly.  I love arguing too, as reclusive artist we probably all do.  As long as we keep things above the belt there's no reason we shouldn't be able to express ourselves openly and keep these boards thriving.

I do hereby swear to not take responses to my posts personally, and humbly ask you guys to do the same.  We're nothing if not brothers.  And sisters, of course.

For some reason this all reminds me of the Wiggles. The kid's music group from Australia. They developed this whole hand wiggle thing so they'd never have to touch kids. Not only to avoid illness but also because they were formed in the middle of a massive awareness of "stranger danger" and they wanted to avoid any accusations of impropriety.

So, of course, people have decided they're gay instead.

Quote from: NoahRodenbeek on March 27, 2010, 06:25:25 PM

I'm going to a book signing for Penny-Arcade Volume 11 next week, and I fully intend to fist-bump them both... on their fists.

I would definitely like to know if they leave you hanging or not.  :-\

Wow! I have a lot of catching up to do  ;D

Quote from: uncaringmachine on March 26, 2010, 09:16:06 AM
Maybe a sign... that says "No handshakes, please. I don't wanna get sick! I have a very weak immune system!"

Quote from: Gibson on March 27, 2010, 02:37:54 PM
... I've been going to cons and I've known people who go to cons for 20 years and I don't know anyone who gets sick from it on anything near a regular basis. Maybe these guys are just kinda sickly?

That's an interesting point: A lot has been pointed out about the poor hygiene but how much awareness has been raised about diet, exercise, and fortifying the immune system.

Quote from: TTallan on March 26, 2010, 10:03:55 AM
I don't recall handshakes being a big part of conventions...maybe that's just because I'm not a particularly well known artist, so no one's terrifically interested in shaking my hand.  ;)

Quote from: Rob on March 26, 2010, 08:04:07 PM
...we may have some gender bias in the results sample.... Are handshakes a bigger deal to guys than girls?

I remember handshakes being quite common at cons... and I'm not particularly well-known, either.
Handshakes may have a gender role associated with them. Even amongst friends, I shake hands with the guys and hug the girls. One time, I've extended my hand for a handshake with a girl and have received a poorly executed handshake... the kind where my fingers are grabbed instead...  :-\

Quote from: TTallan on March 26, 2010, 10:03:55 AM...if the PAX guests said to their fans that they're not taking the offered hand because they're concerned for their health (the fans' health, that is), it would go over much better.

Agreed. Impress your readers with your concern for them rather than self-preservation.

Quote from: Rob on March 26, 2010, 08:04:07 PMI also think, should this no touching thing become widespread the implications for smaller webcomics will be more hurtful than for the big guys.

I don't know if the size of the webcomic's audience is really a factor as much as the message of the comic's marketing. If you write a bad-ass hardcore comic, maybe you could greet your fans by flipping the middle finger. Or... if you write a Japanese-influenced comic, you would bow as a form of greeting.

There is, of course, something to be said about your influence on your audience. Your adoring fans may accept more impolite behavior if your creativity is more in demand. Throw a diva fit if you don't get the red m&m's as stated on your rider, it's all good.

Quote from: JGray on March 27, 2010, 07:29:36 AM
We do live in a society that undervalues sickness. I've read that a little more precaution on our parts (sneezing into our elbows, not out hands. Taking a day off from work when we're sick instead of going in and spreading the germs around. That sort of thing) would actually increase our productivity instead of decrease it because we'd better isolate the sickness.

Quote from: raerae on March 27, 2010, 12:48:01 PM
..you're often expected to work through your illness: Particularly retail and even more so in the restaurant business
(which honestly doesn't make sense to me, since they're handling FOOD). I suppose it doesn't help that from school to job you have only x amount of sick days, so you need to ask yourself "Can I really afford to call off now? What if I need it later in the year?".

Quote from: JGray on March 27, 2010, 02:01:20 PM
Exactly what I mean. We have all this more or less useless "anti-bacterial" product out there because of the cultural "work ethic" where you're expected to work no matter what.

I would say that North American culture values convenience. The service industry can't allow for their workers to call in sick because the consumers would end up with longer wait times, stores would have to close early because there is nobody to cover the midnight shift, and the public would resort to seeking an alternative (the competitor). When my local Tim Hortens was closed for the evenings, I had to drive two more blocks to then next closest one.  >:(

Quote from: Rob on March 27, 2010, 05:27:33 PM
Risk getting sick and keep your fans close to you or cut off human contact and risk alienating fans. I suppose the issue here is also muddied by the way it has been presented; the idea that creator's don't owe their fans such things and the con organizers attempts to unilaterally impose restrictions on human contact.

Quote from: Rob on March 27, 2010, 06:11:17 PM
... it really isn't important how you feel about handshakes. It's important to your business and fanbase and reputation how the people whose handshakes you are refusing feel.
So the question you have to ask yourself ... are [handshakes] important to my fans and am I willing to risk their favor by refusing such acts?

This was the theme I read in a marketing reference book. Alienating your target audience is a no-no. The wider your target is, the more carefully you need to tread.

Interesting thought regarding general sickliness.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with handshakes. Fistbumps I would, only because I'd feel silly.
However, my girlfriend has been ill for a while now and thinking about it more if I knew there was a history of outbreaks of nastiness at a con or that there was something going around I probably would try and avoid contact at the moment, not for my own sake as I get over illness reasonably fast, but because I wouldn't want to spread any more bugs to her than she already has right now.

Quote from: wendyw on March 28, 2010, 08:35:02 AMHowever, my girlfriend has been ill for a while now and thinking about it more if I knew there was a history of outbreaks of nastiness at a con or that there was something going around I probably would try and avoid contact at the moment, not for my own sake as I get over illness reasonably fast, but because I wouldn't want to spread any more bugs to her than she already has right now.

That's admirable and understandable, but wouldn't the safest move be not going to the con at all rather than establishing some new and quite frankly insipid protocol on how your fans were allowed to greet you?

Here's another question...they're going to be selling things, I would assume, and that means money will be changing hands, yes? Maybe they just haven't thought of it, but money in itself is pretty disgusting and it isn't a stretch to think, if one or two of their fans are plague rats, then one or two of the bills they've pawing might be contaminated with their dreaded Nerd Flu. Any ideas on how someone can get around touching money at a con?

Quote from: Gibson on March 28, 2010, 10:56:44 AM

Quote from: wendyw on March 28, 2010, 08:35:02 AMHowever, my girlfriend has been ill for a while now and thinking about it more if I knew there was a history of outbreaks of nastiness at a con or that there was something going around I probably would try and avoid contact at the moment, not for my own sake as I get over illness reasonably fast, but because I wouldn't want to spread any more bugs to her than she already has right now.

That's admirable and understandable, but wouldn't the safest move be not going to the con at all rather than establishing some new and quite frankly insipid protocol on how your fans were allowed to greet you?

Here's another question...they're going to be selling things, I would assume, and that means money will be changing hands, yes? Maybe they just haven't thought of it, but money in itself is pretty disgusting and it isn't a stretch to think, if one or two of their fans are plague rats, then one or two of the bills they've pawing might be contaminated with their dreaded Nerd Flu. Any ideas on how someone can get around touching money at a con?

Poorly paid cashiers? :D

I actually had a wild hare moment when I first heard of this where I considered a call to all con goers to keep their money in their underpants. Y'know. Since fecal matter is what spreads this virus. Because they may not accept your hand shake... but they will surely accept your cash.

But that was beyond the pale even for me.

Yes folks... these be the inner workings o' mah deviant mind thinkins.  :D

Quote from: Gibson on March 28, 2010, 10:56:44 AM

That's admirable and understandable, but wouldn't the safest move be not going to the con at all rather than establishing some new and quite frankly insipid protocol on how your fans were allowed to greet you?

That is a good point. To be honest, if I thought there was a good chance that I'd catch something and pass it on then I probably wouldn't go and instead see if anyone wanted a free table in exchange for taking some of the stuff I would have taken along as well as their own.

You know, I will say that I have caught the con-flu several times. I don't tend to get the stuff as bad anymore, though, because now I tend to drink a lot of orange juice or bring some Airborn or Emergen-C with me(sadly, I can no longer find Airborn Gummies >: ). Honestly, it never crossed my mind to refuse to even touch anyone. After all, they touch stuff too. Like the elevator buttons or stair hand-holds or the table and money, of course.

It's really just part of the con is the possibility of catching something. Just like going to an airport or school or any other place that has lots of people.

Interestingly, yesterday I went to dinner at a casino buffet.  Seated a bit off to my left was an older gentleman having his meal, when another gentleman, apparently an old friend who's been out of touch, approached with his hand out for a shake.  The man at the table rose and extended his fist for a knuckle bump (surprised the heck out of me).  The old friend looked at the fist, then at the man with a bewildered look, and then wrapped his hand around the man's fist and shook it.  The first man then tried to explain about the knuckle bump idea, at which point the old friend nodded, bumped his fist with the other man, and then walked back to his own table.  Silly as it all looked, that right there destroyed any conversation the two old friends might have had.

About that time the person I was with wanted to know why I was watching those guys. Heh

Wonderful Wendy has gotten me an in of sorts over at The Webcomics List for a poll of fans on this subject.

But polls are funny things and a lot of it comes down to how the questions are asked. I want to be as fair as possible and not lead the participants to conclusions if I can avoid it.

Anyone got any thoughts? I'll post the questions I'm considering once I've carved them out.  ;)

Quote from: Dragon Powered on March 29, 2010, 03:27:12 PM
The old friend looked at the fist, then at the man with a bewildered look, and then wrapped his hand around the man's fist and shook it.

I just wanted to acknowledge that as kind of awesome.

So last night was the book signing for Penny-Arcade's new book.  Mike and Jerry did an hour long Q&A while Mike sketched random requests and other funny stuff, then we all lined up to get our stuff signed and meet the guys. 

I thought about how to best initiate a fist-bump, but I couldn't think of any way to do it that wouldn't end up being extremely awkward and just a giant faux pas.  I still don't get how handshakes fit into the meet-and-greet process for other people.  An artist publicly denouncing them, especially in a hilarious comic-strip, seems like the least big deal I've ever heard.

I thought the whole to-do was kinda silly.  Even if you don't shake people's hands, I've been to many conventions that I've been both an attendee, a volunteer/helper, and working with a dealer.  The vast majority of the illnesses spread around are airborne, so even if you managed to avoid touching absolutely anything the whole weekend, your chances of getting something that weekend are still very high (given the large number of people in a confined space).  I have a theory that the fan-funk is like aether for viruses: if you can smell it, you're already infected.  My plan is to get a research grant some day to study it.

Me, personally, I'll take the chance of shaking a fan's hand for that bit of good-will and just have the smarts to not jam my hand into my mouth afterward.

Quote from: NoahRodenbeek on April 01, 2010, 01:07:43 PM
So last night was the book signing for Penny-Arcade's new book.  Mike and Jerry did an hour long Q&A while Mike sketched random requests and other funny stuff, then we all lined up to get our stuff signed and meet the guys. 

I thought about how to best initiate a fist-bump, but I couldn't think of any way to do it that wouldn't end up being extremely awkward and just a giant faux pas.  I still don't get how handshakes fit into the meet-and-greet process for other people.  An artist publicly denouncing them, especially in a hilarious comic-strip, seems like the least big deal I've ever heard.

Noah I think we all get that it's no big deal to you. What I'm wondering is if you recognize that it is a big deal to some people? And if so... how does that color your interpretation of the issue?

I just got back from my "once every three weeks on Friday" 3.5 D&D game. It's only the second time I've been to this particular game. I just started playing D&D again for the first time in over 30 years (long story... essentially working with Black Gate made me feel like I ought to be able to speak the D20 language to relate to the guys I'm working with). Two of five other people there were new to me. One wasn't able to make it on my first outing with the group and the other was joining in as a new character like I did at the previous meeting. When I was introduced to both of the new guys I shook both their hands. 10 PM came around and we all packed up and headed out. A good time was had by all. Everyone shook my hand and shook each other's hands before heading home for the night. I made a conscious effort not to initiate any handshakes because I wanted to see if it would happen without my input. It did. Maybe it's a local cultural thing.. but around here shaking hands is a big deal, even for casual gaming acquaintances who only see each other for a couple hours once every three weeks. I would have felt very strange... even guilty if I had refused any of these handshakes... and although there is no way for me to prove it I suspect my gaming companions would have been put off if I had refused them.

Now that I have my internet back I'm going to get to work on that poll. I hope to have it done by Sunday. Once again... any suggestions on question format are welcome.  ;)

I hate it when people tell me something that's important to me isn't important to them, and I apologize if my posts are sounding like that.  I would be hard-pressed to think of any topic that isn't worth discussing on a forum, and only a total cock-knocker would try to shut down a topic based on their conversational preferences.

The point I was trying (poorly) to make is that the issue really isn't important to them (Penny-Arcade & co.).  It's a punch-line in the context of the flu that broke out after last year's PAX. 

Here's Scott Kurtz's blog post from that time which corresponds with a week's worth of guest strips:
http://www.pvponline.com/2009/09/09/pax-was-sick/

I would be shocked if any artist, the bigger players included, sneered at an offered hand or even thought that snubbing a handshake would be their sure-fire method to not get sick.  These guys have built wildly successful careers based on empathy to their fans needs, and they probably don't deserve to have their common-sense-intelligence insulted.  A joke about PAXinating is well-played, in my opinion.

Quote from: Rob on April 03, 2010, 12:32:41 AMI suspect my gaming companions would have been put off if I had refused them.

Not to mention what kind of crazy-ass you would have looked like if you had them pulled some Klingon salute at them.

With the poll, I'm not sure anymore that people are entirely honest with themselves about how they would react in given situations. Recently on my site, I asked how people would feel if they found out their significant other had been keeping a particularly big secret from them for a year of their relationship, in this case that they were taking their clothes off in front of other people. I was pretty stunned to find that most people said they wouldn't be bothered in the slightest, not even by the lying. Personally, I call bullshit on that. A lot of people seem to want to think they're cooler about things bothering them. Really, I don't think there are many people, even ones who say it wouldn't matter, who wouldn't feel, if not insulted, rejected if someone refused to shake their hands. If you're interested in learning more factually about it, I think the only reliable thing to do is to start refusing handshakes. I don't suggest it, though, because then everyone will think you're a rude arse.

Another question you might add to the poll: would you shake hands with someone if you were in the throes of a bad cold?

Quote from: TTallan on April 03, 2010, 06:36:50 PM
Another question you might add to the poll: would you shake hands with someone if you were in the throes of a bad cold?

Tara, oh yeah I definitely am going to put something like that in the poll. It's at the heart of the matter I feel.

Noah I didn't mean to imply you were being dismissive of the subject matter. I was genuinely curious if the idea that handshakes are important to other people colored your thoughts on the overall subject matter since you are coming at it from the perspective that handshakes are not important to you.

I mean the dynamic is pretty simple. If you take four people... two of them consider handshakes important and two do not you only have a 1 in 3 chance of not offending someone under those circumstances.

If A = You

X = Someone who doesn't care about handshakes

Y= Someone who does care about handshakes

then you end up with

A + X = No big deal

A + Y = Offended

A + Y = Offended

If you want to add a further dimension by submitting a secondary characteristic that of the people who consider handshakes important only half will be offended if you explain you are sick or don't want tog et sick then it works out like this:

A = You

X = Someone who doesn't care about handshakes

Y1 = Someone who does care about handshakes

Y2 = Someone who does care about handshakes but will not be offended if you explain you are sick are don't want to get sick.

Then:

A + X = No big deal

A + Y1 = Offended

A + Y2 = No big deal

My point is simply this... as long as there are people to whom handshakes are important and will be offended if you refuse them a handshake regardless of the reason there does not seem to be a way to NOT shake hands without offending someone.

So the things you have to ask yourself are "do I consider this fact that as long as there are people who consider handshaking important enough that some people will be offended if I refuse to shake hands worth the risk to my webcomic venture by refusing to shake hands anyway?"

You can justify it any way you want.

"I don't want to get sick"
"I don't want you to get sick"
"You are filthy and I don't want to touch you"
"Handshaking isn't an important social mannerism to me"

But however you slice it... if you know there are people who consider handshaking important and you know there are people who will be offended if you don't then you pretty much know that by refusing to shake hands you will be offending "somebody." So the question comes down to whether or not it's worth the risk? It would be enormously difficult to quantify the risk but that's what I'm going to attempt to do with the poll. But I think the mix just here on the forum should give us all some idea that there is a significant portion on both sides of the question.

And so that really does return us to the core issue at hand. If knowing that you will offend someone regardless of how you feel about it be enough to get you to always shake hands or will you risk the damage it may do and refuse to shake for whatever your reasons are?

I can tell you this much. I'm enjoying the discussion quite a bit. 8)

I feel like this topic is fabricated off of a misinterpretation. 

Is there an account from any fans of them actually snubbing an offered handshake?  hey're boycotting handshakes and dripping weeping, pussy wounds into each other's urethras.  That smells like a joke to me.


"Not to mention what kind of crazy-ass you would have looked like if you had them pulled some Klingon salute at them."

The vast majority of Penny-Arcade fans are Trekkie/Star Wars fans and would probably not be embarrassed about doing the salute... it would have fit their Klingon cosplay outfit perfectly.

My friends at Rooster Teeth confirmed that Scott refused to shake hands explaining that he didn't want to get sick that weekend. And Scott publicly blogged that "not shaking hands worked" in his blog.

They were also far more "serious" in the tweets they sent out about not shaking hands.

But I wasn't at PAX East so I don't know for sure.

I can tell you that for me this discussion is more about the theoretical idea of not shaking hands and the ramifications of that choice rather than the reality of it because to be honest I would do what I want anyway and shaking hands has always been something I do.

So whether the premise of the discussion is theoretical or not doesn't really matter all that much. I'm more looking at it from the perspective of "If no one cares... and it's a good way to avoid illness then we should promote it as a good practice at conventions but if some people care and may get offended then a) is it worth the risk of illness to avoid offending that portion of potential fans or b) is it worth the risk to the business (potential loss of fans) to not shake hands?"

That's where I'm at.

Quote from: Rob on April 04, 2010, 12:52:30 PM
And Scott publicly blogged that "not shaking hands worked" in his blog.

It's really shaky logic to think that he didn't get sick BECAUSE he didn't shake anyone's hand. The only way it isn't silly to think this is if everyone who shook hands got sick and no one who didn't shake hands did.

Scott Kurtz wrote this in his March 30th blog:

And for the record, refusing to shake hands worked. I think it worked for a lot of people. It was nice. Everyone did great.

Other than that cartoon that ran over at Penny Arcade, I haven't heard any comments from any of the other creators involved and can't ascertain if they're being serious or not.  Kurtz sounds like he was being serious.  Obviously what I think of him shouldn't have any merit to him or to his fans, but I think that he's full of himself.

Stan Lee is more recognized than all these individuals combined, and he still shakes people's hands (and he's older than dirt).  Jack Kirby actually invited fans into his home; they ate his food; they swam in his pool (and probably peed in it).

And Scott Kurtz can't shake a fan's hand?

As a courtesy to Kurtz, Holkins and Krahulik, I won't spend any of my germ-ridden money on their merchandise.  Wouldn't want them to get sick.

Right, if they're actually refusing handshakes then they suck.  It's hard for me to get into idol-worship mode with a fellow web-comicist, and I'd be pretty livid if I had a handshake snubbed by one of them.  Stan Lee, now that would be the greatest handshake snub of all time.  He could spit in my face and I'd still be happy to meet him!

I met Stan Lee a few years ago.  I'm usually not fazed by meeting celebrities or what-not, but I was a gushing fan boy when I met "The Man."  He was the nicest person that you could meet, too.  He seemed very appreciative.

I'm not saying I oppose hand-shaking, because I don't, but this quote hit a nerve for me:

QuoteBut however you slice it... if you know there are people who consider handshaking important and you know there are people who will be offended if you don't then you pretty much know that by refusing to shake hands you will be offending "somebody."

To play the devil's advocate here:

However you slice it, if you know that there are people who don't like shaking hands, don't think it's important or fear for their health or the health of the people who are shaking their hands, and you know that there are people who will be offended if you do try to force shaking their hand on them despite their specific request that you not, then you pretty much know that by forcing the issue you are going to offend "somebody", too. Especially if they've given you a simple alternative to it like the Klingon whatever thingie.

I do not understand the perceived obligation, here. No one owes you a handshake, and even if you don't agree with it, the pure outrage at the hypothetical situation in where, if you had gone, you may not have gotten one comes off as a weird and uncalled for sense of entitlement.

To some people, handshakes are not that important. You can rant all you want about that not mattering because there are people who DO think they're important, but it feels awful hypocritical considering that you feel that your perspective takes precedence over  the person who doesn't care for them and doesn't want themselves or you to get sick.

Honestly, this is an overblown topic. I really don't think it deserves all the outrage it's getting.

Geez Ran... but how do you really feel about it? :P

I'm asking questions and looking for answers. Not ranting. Some people feel more passionately on the subject than I do but... despite your feelings on the subject I do think it's a discussion worth having. Especially if this "no handshaking" policy becomes the norm.

If you said hello to someone and they didn't respond... most people would probably consider that rude. In this case I'm working off of the same premise... the generally accepted, common sense idea that if you refused a handshake... also a type of greeting, that some folks would be offended; even if you explained your reasoning some would at the least be disappointed.

It is this premise that I seek some measure of proof for with the poll I mentioned. If I can get some feedback on it I might have a better idea if it is a practice that will hurt a convention exhibitor or not. I drew a conclusion based on what I've seen here so far in this thread... that handshakes are important to some of us. Obviously I'd like more evidence before I say it's an issue that all exhibitors should consider. But that doesn't change my opinion of what the outcome will be.

And your opinion is no less valid than mine. You may be right. We may be making mountains out of molehills here because if nobody cares than it doesn't matter.

But in the short run I can tell you that "somebody" cares because several somebodies, including me, have said so. You may call it an "uncalled for sense of entitlement" but I see it as part of the social contract we all adhere to for the most part. Shaking hands is an accepted and expected greeting. I've never been to a job interview or met a girlfriends parents where a handshake wasn't exchanged and I can't think of a webcomic maker whom I met at a con who didn't shake my hand when I stuck it out.

And I do stick it out. Sometimes I don't have to because they beat me to the punch but I can't think of a single creator I've met whose hand I didn't shake.

To me it's part of the con going experience and if I was expected to give the "Iron Cross" instead I wouldn't bother. I'd also be a lot less interested in going to cons.

No one owes anyone a handshake, it's true, but no one owes you a 'bless you' after a sneeze, an "excuse me" after a belch, a "thank you" after someone holds a door for you, a wave after letting you change lanes in front of them, or even holding the door or letting someone change lanes in front of them. No one owes anyone these things in the sense that there is no legal or financial burden for anyone to do so, but those are the rules that we play by in our society. We don't get to vote on things like that, they just are or aren't. You don't have to do them, but if you don't, then be prepared for others to think you a douchebag. Things like that don't exist in a vacuum, when people decide to behave a certain way that is counter to what is generally thought of as polite, there will always be a reaction like this. If you (not you, Ran, specifically) don't think so, keep it in mind the next time someone doesn't give you the lane-change wave.

I don't know Scott Kurtz and I don't read his comic, so I can't speak for what he is like. He could be a really good guy and I don't think he's the devil. All I know is how he comes off in this situation, and in this situation, he seems like a hypochondriacal egomaniac who thinks that not shaking someone's hands is a magic wand to prevent disease. I found myself wondering when I saw that last quote whether he believed the rotation of the sun caused hunger. Yeh, I can understand not wanting to get sick from some unwashed comic nerd, but until someone tells me he wasn't handling their money, then I call hypocrisy.

Aaaaaaaaaaaand once again along comes Gibson who makes my point more eloquently than I did.

I need to hire you as my PR flack or some shit.  8)
_{As soon as I have more than $1.25 in my checking account}

And I have met Scott Kurtz... I assure you he's a very nice guy.

And his comic is actually quite funny when he isn't giving Steve Jobs a metaphorical BJ (which is often enough to be annoying but not too bad). I find the LOLBat and Retweet stuff particularly charming. You should check it out.  ;)

I can also tell you that both times I met him he was handling the money. I can also tell you that When I met Jerry and Mike they had "people" who handled the money as they were waaaaaaay too busy to do that shit themselves and when I introduced myself as a fellow webcomicer and gave Jerry a Remedy T-shirt (what can I say I like the writer... sue me... Mike got an autographed print... how's that for arrogance? LOL) they initiated handshakes with me. In fact I even had a little chat with Mike about "not squeezing his hand too hard because I have some idea what he's going through drawing all weekend... but I didn't want him to think I was a limp shake, I was just thinking of him."

I think it would be foolish to dismiss the idea that shaking hands at cons can lead to illness. Too many people get sick after cons for it to be a coincidence. At the same time it could be airborne, or in the food at one of the concessions or even on the monies: or even on one of those filthy Wookies everyone is always rubbing up against.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_wB_B2FyhJMM/S3cmAOiuYwI/AAAAAAAABgo/j-tDDYtkws4/s320/chewbacca_and_kirsten_bell.jpg)

(http://awesomestream.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/chewbacca.jpg)

The question for me has always been is it worth it: is it worth alienating fans who might be offended by the "no shake" policy on the off chance it will keep you healthy? And at the same time is it worth it to keep shaking hands if you get knocked on your arse for a week every time you go to a convention? I am trying to look at both sides of the issue... even if I personally feel not shaking hands is something I would never do.

I do find that this discussion is very interesting (and looking at the number of responses, I guess others do too). It's also interesting at how polarizing this topic can become - where some people would make an 'absolutely-no-touching policy' and a result could be the opposite, where others could make it a mission to shake as many hands as possible.

I'm not sure you're quite getting the point I was trying to make, Rob:

Scenario 1: You try and shake my hand at a convention, I inform you that I'm coming down with something and politely decline. I have also helpfully put up a sign saying that I'd rather not shake hands, and am also wearing a shirt that urges you to not do so as well. You are offended.

Scenario 2: I'm Scott Kurtz and I make it clear in my blog that I don't want to get really sick and will not be shaking hands I've perhaps even placed a sign at my table, or am wearing a t-shirt that says I will not be shaking hands. However flawed my reasoning is, I've made it clear that I don't want to, and you come up to my table, look at the sign, look at my shirt, and still try and force your hand on me. I am offended that you are forcing your hand on me, and *I* feel rude for not taking it, but my desire to not get sick is prevalent and I end up looking like a dick because you are being pushy despite ample warning. I am offended.

Point: Why is YOU being offended any different from ME (hypothetical Scott Kurtz) being offended? Why is either party's offence more important? Why is either party's less?  You can rave all you like about social conventions, but not everyone adheres to or places the same importance on each and every one.

I am a GIRL. I do not really place the same stock in handshakes as most of the guys posting in here do, and that is very clear to me. Maybe it's because the only time I have ever shaken someone's hand has been at job interviews, and sometimes when I am meeting people for the first time and they offer first. I have sold at conventions before, and the one or two times that people have wanted to shake my hand, I let them. I am fine with that. However, I do not see why shaking my hand is necessary, and oddly enough, it seems that a lot of other people are the same--there are people who come up to me who want to chitchat for 25 minutes, but they don't even think of offering me their hand, because it isn't really relative to selling art or in the dealer's room at a convention.

There's an awful lot to cover in that post Ran.

First I'll say I do get your point but I sort of discounted it because you used the words "...people who will be offended if you do try and force shaking their hand on them..." and forcing anyone to shake my hand would, in the context I thought you were saying it, assuredly lead to my ejection from the con and possibly an assault charge.

Simply put if someone doesn't want to shake a hand nothing says they have to.

But I now I see you are more referring to some sort of emotional blackmail. Like I would stand there with my hand out and an expectant look on my face, ignoring the sign and T-Shirt and verbally conveyed request.

Frankly I consider that nonsensical. There aren't a whole lot of people who would ignore all that and insistently have their hand out any way. Although I actually find the scenario fairly ripe with comedic possibilities. But that's not important.

You've asked an important question and I'll try and answer it but I can only answer it for myself... at least until Gib comes back in here and says it better for me. LOL. :D

Your question... if I may boil it down a bit, seems to be "why my expectation of a handshake is more important that an exhibitors desire to not shake hands" or perhaps better put with some of your words "why  is it that something that offends me should be more important than something that offends an exhibitor?"

Under your scenario, you (Kurtz) would first have to refuse my handshake (offending me) before I could try and pressure you into doing it anyway (offending you); leaving us both offended and generally unhappy with each other. Even prior warning doesn't change this. If, when I met Scott at NY Comic Con last year this had taken place beforehand and I knew he wasn't going to shake hands I would be bothered by it.

Does it infiltrate my dreams and make me question the existence of God? No. Someone not shaking my hand isn't really that big of a deal to me. I would most likely think less of the person generally and move on with my life (I would not engage in the Iron Cross salute as suggested because I frankly find it condescending, but that's just me). But if you look at it from a more macro/sociological perspective it is certainly something worth considering if for example you were running a community forum for people involved in the webcomic business who are looking to maximize returns at conventions where they interact with large groups of the public.

Scott made himself the poster boy for this issue (as he often does and I think often seeks to do in his clever way) but it's important for me to have everyone understand that Scott isn't really the issue. He's the catalyst because his name recognition took something that many folks have done in the past on a small scale and made it a big deal that effected a lot of people. But it is the behavior that's at issue here. Not the man.

But that doesn't answer your question really so I'll take another stab at it. Offense is such a personal thing. What offends one person (obviously) may not even be noticed by another and from traveling the world I can tell you that what offends people is also cultural.

When I was in the service and in the Gulf for the war we were given handbooks on certain things we should avoid doing when dealing with the population of the country. On the list was touching people with your left hand. Some people said it was spiritual and some folks said it was because the Bedouins of old never had anything but their own left hands to wipe their backsides with when they pooped in the sand (which frankly made me a hell of a lot more concerned about them touching me with their left hands than they should have felt about me touching them.... I always carried extra TP). Another no-no was showing an Arab the sole of your shoe which basically meant people who liked to cross their legs when sitting would have to get a new leg position. Some people said this was also related to people stepping in Camel poo all the time and no one wanting to really see that.

We were also warned that Arab people have a very different idea of how big a personal zone of space is and that we should be prepared for them to get uncomfortably close to us without backing away out of discomfort. And although I never had to deal with the first two I can confirm this last one is true. It's been twenty years and I can still smell the guy and tell you how many fillings he had in his teeth.

These "social conventions" as you put it, that we adhered to because we were ordered to were there to keep us from offending the local population.

Now in my culture, where I live and where I've lived most of my life; people shake hands. It's about respect. You look someone directly in the eyes, give them a firm grip: you are acknowledging them. It's a very basic and very common practice here in Connecticut (at least amongst the circles of people I'm related to, been friends with and generally known for my almost 40 years in the state).

So you've asked why my offense is more important than yours (or Scott's as the query goes).

The simple answer is, it isn't.

But...

And this is where it gets more complicated. If I'm at a convention and I want you to buy my stuff, support my art, tell your friends and family about me and so on: if I want you to be a patron of my artistic endeavors, I would say that it is more important that I do not offend you, than any offense I may receive on your behalf.

Webcomics creators are full of con stories about crazed fans who have crossed lines they never should have but in general, the ones I have heard all seem to end with the creator acknowledging that that one crazy fan has probably told everyone he/she knows about the creator's work. And therefore, despite the insanity or offense on the part of the creator it pays for the creator to be gracious in the situation.

From a sales and marketing perspective, you lose customers when you offend them. I hope it's safe to say that that is a generally accepted truism. In most businesses (with the exception of "Dick's (http://www.dickslastresort.com/)" in Boston which is a lot of fun and perhaps a stand up comedy show) if your customers think you are rude they won't come back; especially if there is an alternative. It's one of the founding precepts of our foundering capitalist society.

To be even more artistic centered I'll offer this question. There was a time in this world where much of the great art created was made by artists who were supported by patrons. The Pope for example was a patron of Michelangelo when he commissioned him to paint the Sistine Chapel. Michelangelo supposedly resented the commission because he saw it as serving the Pope's need to show off. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sistine_Chapel) He worked for the Pope for four years. How long do you think that work would have lasted if, whenever the Pope came to see Michelangelo instead of bowing before him and kissing his ring (and Yuck I might add... how many people probably got sick from that practice?) Michelangelo insisted on a "no touching" policy and asked to Pope to do the Klingon "Iron Cross" salute as a greeting to him?

Probably not long. But again, just my opinion.

If you are looking at things from a perspective of "will Rob be offended" you really aren't seeing the bigger picture I'm talking about. Sure, I might be offended but I'm one person. Who cares? But if the numbers come back like 1 in 5 or even 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 people would be offended by a no handshaking policy, at what point does it become less about the policy and more about the ramifications.

I mean, on the small scale you say:

QuoteI'm Scott Kurtz and I make it clear in my blog that I don't want to get really sick and will not be shaking hands I've perhaps even placed a sign at my table, or am wearing a t-shirt that says I will not be shaking hands.

And I'm already bothered by it. I wouldn't bother trying to force you to shake my hand. I already think less of you and am moving on.

If there is no prior warning and I find out when I'm standing in front of you then the situation to my mind is even worse (even a sign and a t-shirt didn't give me the foreknowledge before I came to the Con and now I'm standing in front of you and I see you aren't shaking hands). I think even less of you and move on.

I wouldn't try and force the situation and I don't think most people would. If someone does just to rub your face in it well... that's actually kind of funny in a just desserts sort of way but it's not something I would do. If they did though, and you feel rude for not taking it then that's good because you are: rude I mean. And if by refusing you feel like you are coming off kind of like a dick because that guy is being pushy then you are right on both accounts. A person who would force this sort of issue is pushy (which is rude) and you are also coming off like a dick by refusing it anyway. Sorry, them's the breaks when you divert from expected social convention.

But again, all of this is just my opinion.

Just as:

QuoteHowever, I do not see why shaking my hand is necessary, and oddly enough, it seems that a lot of other people are the same--there are people who come up to me who want to chitchat for 25 minutes, but they don't even think of offering me their hand, because it isn't really relative to selling art or in the dealer's room at a convention.

Is your opinion.

Just as me saying the opposite:

QuoteHowever, I do see why shaking my hand is necessary, and oddly enough, it seems that a lot of other people are the same--there are people who come up to me who want to chitchat for 25 minutes, then offer me their hand, because it is vitally important to selling art or in the dealer's room at a convention.

Is opinion.

But there is one part of this where opinion comes into play. And it is at the macro level and it is directly related to the things I've been talking about in prior posts. And it goes like this.

If I am offended by people refusing to shake hands for whatever reason (although if they said they had leprosy I'd probably be ok about getting put off). And there are a few others here in this thread who have said the same, it does beg the question "how many would be put off by this behavior?" Which leads to the next question "how many people offended would it take to adversely affect my webcomic business?" And lastly "is it worth the risk of offending anyone?"

Shaking hands and all that comes with it is a voluntary behavior; just as refusing to shake hands is as well and there are repercussions to both decisions. On the one hand you may get sick. On the other you may risk alienating fans or potential fans or at the very least customers. I said may even though I know "I" would be put off and so would a few others who have said so here. But if the numbers are statistically insignificant then what's three or four people put off? Not really worth the risk of getting sick I'd say. Even if it's 3 or 4 per Con.

But the fact, yes FACT that it would bother me means that by refusing handshakes at least one person would be put off by it and would be less inclined to support you financially, promote your work to others and generally have a positive attitude towards your endeavors. And this fact justifies the exploration of how widely these ideas are held and the possible ramifications of each choice. At least to my mind it does.

Because if it is 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 even then those are significant numbers and if you offend that many people there will be consequences. Financial consequences. And in time you may find that your popular webcomic isn't quite as popular and that your best selling merch isn't selling quite as well.

Again, these is all conjecture based upon one fact. That "I" would be bothered if someone refused my handshake. But the exploration of it is worthwhile.

And I don't think I'm raving or ranting.

Do you guys think I'm raving and/or ranting?

Poll time!

I've tried to refrain from incendiary language and exposition but I'm told I come off like a combative douche sometimes so there's always that. I don't know. Honestly I'm just sitting here calmly in front of my desktop typing away serenely. I feel nothing more than an intellectual curiosity on these subjects. Not worked up in the slightest. I do have some concern for the future in that I really hope to get my own work to the point that I'm exhibiting at Con's myself soon and I'd hate to get there and discover con attendance in the crapper and the business model destroyed by self involved weenies whose desire to avoid the common cold overrode their business sense but that's pretty monster in the closet kind of fear right there. Not a concern I can take all that seriously. And if that's the limit of my fears then I'd say I'm pretty calm on the subject.

It's not like Scott refused to shake my hand. I've shaken his hand twice. And the Penny Arcade guys. Any more physical contact between us and people might start talking. LOL. ;D

Quote from: Gibson on April 04, 2010, 01:23:05 PM

Quote from: Rob on April 04, 2010, 12:52:30 PM
And Scott publicly blogged that "not shaking hands worked" in his blog.

It's really shaky logic to think that he didn't get sick BECAUSE he didn't shake anyone's hand. The only way it isn't silly to think this is if everyone who shook hands got sick and no one who didn't shake hands did.

Lisa, I would like to buy your rock...
___________________________________

I think the handshake is more prevalent among men than women, so it wouldn't have the same meaning for you Ran. I'm not sure if there's really an equivalent for women (I know women shake hands, but it's different and not as ingrained).

The handshake is a gesture of trust and equality, and contrarywise declining a handshake is a mark of disrespect. While "I don't want to get sick" is perfectly valid, refusing to shake hands kind of reads as "You are my inferior".

I thought the comic PA posted was a really good workaround for that though. Advance warning was given in a non-dickbag kind of way through the comic which everyone at the con could reasonably have been expected to read, rationale was explained and an alternative ritual of recognition was given. As long as they return the Klingon salute (or initiate it when a handshake is proferred) then there's no snub as far as I'm concerned.

I don't really like PvP, so I don't know how Scott Kurtz approached this. Doing a comic about it AND putting up signs AND wearing a t-shirt makes the transition into dickbaggery through overdoing it though. Kind of a "HEY! HEY! LOOK AT ME! I DON'T WANT TO TOUCH PEOPLE!!!" kind of thing. Sounds to me like he was trying to generate big multi-page forum threads about social convention and imagined offense...I don't think getting people talking about you is bad PR

[Edit: Rob posted his essay while I was typing, so that last paragraph is tacked on]

I am absolutely, totally cool with someone who doesn't want to shake hands with people, for whatever reason they want. When I meet someone and I reach for their hand (which I do) and they tell me they're sick or have dirty hands or whatever, it's cool. If they're some weirdo germaphobe, and they tell me they don't want to catch my cooties, I'm gonna think they're weird (as are most people going to think) but it's fine. If you're one of these people, though, then putting yourself in a situation where a natural reaction from a lot of people is going to be the urge to shake hands and then staunchly refusing to do so, then you're acting like a bit of a dick. I have to agree that, if the guy had a sign and a t-shirt (did he actually?) and put it on his blog (and I don't give a rat's ass if he had it on his blog, I wouldn't have read it even if I read his comic) then he's making it a big deal himself as well.

And I can't stress enough how idiotic it is for someone to worry about shaking hands but still touch their money. Money is like a plague rag at the best of times, but if you think someone has hand herpes, they're surely going to pass it along in the bills.

QuoteThe question for me has always been is it worth it: is it worth alienating fans who might be offended by the "no shake" policy on the off chance it will keep you healthy? And at the same time is it worth it to keep shaking hands if you get knocked on your arse for a week every time you go to a convention? I am trying to look at both sides of the issue... even if I personally feel not shaking hands is something I would never do.

I don't think I really understand how this is a "question for you."  You've made it very clear that for you, it would be absolutely NOT worth it to refuse shaking hands for any reason, whereas others who decided to refuse handshakes obviously feel that it IS worth it.  I don't get what there is to talk about beyond that.  If by "I am trying to look at both sides of the issue" you mean that you might possibly be swayed (though I don't get that impression) then maybe you should be including some of the people who refused to shake hands in this discussion.  And you're certainly not going to convince them of anything yourself if you don't include them in the discussion.  Basically everyone is pretty much set in their opinion, so what is this thread still going so strongly for?

QuoteBut if you look at it from a more macro/sociological perspective it is certainly something worth considering if for example you were running a community forum for people involved in the webcomic business who are looking to maximize returns at conventions where they interact with large groups of the public.

Forgive me but I haven't gotten the impression than anyone was particularly looking for advice on the matter, and no one seems genuinely undecided as to how they would go about attending a con.

QuoteI think the handshake is more prevalent among men than women, so it wouldn't have the same meaning for you Ran. I'm not sure if there's really an equivalent for women (I know women shake hands, but it's different and not as ingrained).

Just for the record, I'm a guy and I don't give a flying spitoon whether someone shakes my hand or not, and I almost never initiate it.  I'm not a terribly confident person, so if someone didn't want to shake my hand, especially if they gave a valid reason like not wanting to get sick, I wouldn't feel hurt so much as foolish for not anticipating such a thing, because I guess I just hold them in higher regard than I do myself.  And let me tell you, if this happened with someone I greatly admire, such as the creator of a webcomic I love, I wouldn't dare feel anything resembling indignancy, just shame or worry that I might have offended this person I respect so much.  I would hold their desire not to shake hands so much higher than any feable desire I had to shake, in an "I'm not worthy" sort of way.  Now, I've never actually attended a con before, but I imagine a lot of fans feel very similarly if this comic (http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1527) is any indication.

QuoteI don't think I really understand how this is a "question for you."  You've made it very clear that for you, it would be absolutely NOT worth it to refuse shaking hands for any reason, whereas others who decided to refuse handshakes obviously feel that it IS worth it.  I don't get what there is to talk about beyond that.  If by "I am trying to look at both sides of the issue" you mean that you might possibly be swayed (though I don't get that impression) then maybe you should be including some of the people who refused to shake hands in this discussion.  And you're certainly not going to convince them of anything yourself if you don't include them in the discussion.  Basically everyone is pretty much set in their opinion, so what is this thread still going so strongly for?

You're absolutely right in that I have made up my mind. But I also am trying to offer decent advice to folks here at the site... you know... this site where people come to share knowledge and advice about webcomics?

And if I could definitively say "yes you should shake hands because polled fans said they get offended when you don't and you don't want to lose customers"

OR

"No you don't have to shake hands. Nobody seems to really care all that much and the few people who do are not worth the risk of getting sick"

Then that would be some good information for webcomicers, planning on attending a convention to have. Especially if it is a convention like PAX that is thinking of banning touching.

And I'm not convinced that no one's mind can be changed here. If the poll shows that loads of people are bothered when an artist refuses human contact then people might think differently about the subject. Conversely, if no one seems to give a rats behind then I would be much more inclined to not think poorly about people who do refuse handshakes. Because right now my opinion of the people who practice this behavior is certainly colored by their decision. And if it really sin't important to the overwhelming majority of people I would like to know. It is also my opinion that others would like to know as well.

QuoteForgive me but I haven't gotten the impression than anyone was particularly looking for advice on the matter, and no one seems genuinely undecided as to how they would go about attending a con.

Are you looking to speak for everyone in this subject? Not just everyone who is reading this thread but also everyone who will ever read this thread? Are you sure no one cares? And if you don't, why are you even reading the thread? There's a lot more to do here, no one is twisting your arm dude.

We are sort of beating a dead horse until I get some data though. So I'll get back to work on that poll.
;)

Question for the pro-handshake people:

If you are buying something from me at a show, will you be expecting me to initiate a handshake? Will you be offended in some way if I don't? (I will not refuse one offered, but I do not habitually shake hands with people.)

Quote from: TTallan on April 06, 2010, 03:44:30 PM
Question for the pro-handshake people:

If you are buying something from me at a show, will you be expecting me to initiate a handshake? Will you be offended in some way if I don't? (I will not refuse one offered, but I do not habitually shake hands with people.)

This is going to sound lame but when it feels right it just sort of happens. There comes a moment in a transaction or a conversation where there is an end or an introduction and that moment comes and my arm goes out. It's on autopilot. So if I'm expecting one, unless I know you aren't into it (signs, T-Shirts, warning "no touch" blogs) my hand will go seeking it.

It doesn't really matter who initiates although with guys that can sometimes be a power play (and with some women I guess but those women are scary and usually a bit "corporate") if it's meant to be someone will stick their hand out. And if it doesn't happen it just wasn't meant to.

So my short answer is no.I don't expect anyone to initiate a handshake ever. They sort of naturally occur. And if one doesn't happen I doubt I give it much thought. It just didn't happen.  ;)

Quote from: TTallan on April 06, 2010, 03:44:30 PM
Question for the pro-handshake people:

If you are buying something from me at a show, will you be expecting me to initiate a handshake? Will you be offended in some way if I don't? (I will not refuse one offered, but I do not habitually shake hands with people.)

No, I don't keep track of who initiates. If a hand is offered, I will accept it... if I offer my hand, I hope it will be accepted in kind.

Perhaps the horse we are currently beating is indeed dead (figuratively). Poll results may be illuminating, however, I do suspect that results will vary according to the specific audience:
eg) Hulk Hogan fans may want handshakes whereas Madonna fans don't. If both the Hulkster and Madonna begin refusing handshakes, the Hulk will deal with a larger backlash from his fans.

I think that the theme being discussed is important but the specific topic of 'handshakes' may have been exhausted. I can think of an analogous example that deals with the same theme. Please excuse me if this is off topic but I'll do my best to present it in a similar light:

A company decides to tighten the financial belt and transmits an e-mail to their staff, "Beginning May 1, we will be promoting our green policy by no longer providing paper cups for the coffee maker. Please provide your own mug and help reduce our carbon footprint. Thank you, - the management"
The staff's sentiment toward this announcement varies:
a)      I already bring my own mug/I don't drink coffee/I buy coffee from elsewhere (no effect)
b)       I should be more environmentally friendly (positive effect)
c)      I don't want to provide my own mug (negative effect)
In this example, you will play the part of management – and you have received negative feedback from  group c). You understand that this decision is affecting group c)'s morale and that your employees are also consumers of your product.

Do you repeal the decision to no longer provide paper cups?

By providing X (handshakes/paper cups/airplane seats for larger people), your consumer base was happy (or not unhappy).
By withholding X, a percentage of your consumer base was negatively affected.
Is the risk of negatively affecting a percentage of your consumer base worth the benefit of withholding X?

I know that my marketing reference book warns against this type of scenario.

People are funny in that their response can change depending on what X is. If you find handshakes to be important but paper cups unimportant, you could side in favour of one and not the other... but I'd like to stress that the scenario is more for the formula than the specific item of handshakes or paper cups.

I'm never offended if someone doesn't initiate a handshake. I think that would be expecting too much. If I initiate and it was refused, I would imagine I'd be, let's say insulted rather than offended. I can say that I've never had someone refuse a handshake, though.

Maybe the company should consider supplying a complimentary mug for its employees.  That way, for a relatively small cost, it could accomplish both reducing its carbon footprint and keeping its employees satisfied.

Actually wait, it says they want to both "tighten their financial belt" and promote their "green policy," so...which is it really?  Even if it's more about the cost, supplying mugs initially would still save money long term.

Quote from: Alectric on April 06, 2010, 09:18:39 PM
Maybe the company should consider supplying a complimentary mug for its employees.  That way, for a relatively small cost, it could accomplish both reducing its carbon footprint and keeping its employees satisfied.

I believe we brainstormed alternatives to the handshake too. That's awesome.

Quote from: Alectric on April 06, 2010, 09:18:39 PM
Actually wait, it says they want to both "tighten their financial belt" and promote their "green policy," so...which is it really?

Was the no handshaking rule a way to prevent yourself from getting sick or reduce the chance of spreading infection to the public? We also discussed that the way you present the idea could reduce offending the consumer base. There appears to be some parallels.

I like where you're going with this...

Is the risk of negatively affecting a percentage of your consumer base worth the benefit of withholding X?

Well if you withhold X, I'm just going to get it somewhere else  :P

I am utterly stupified. I think this is the longest conversation on these forums. It this were TWCL it would have degenerated into babble by now.

Awesome.

Quote from: JGray on April 07, 2010, 06:52:20 AM
I am utterly stupified. I think this is the longest conversation on these forums. It this were TWCL it would have degenerated into babble by now.

Awesome.

Hey! What are you suggesting, huh?
That we can't stay on topic? That we get easily distracted? That we have the collective attention spam of a goldfish?


Of course not. We'd still be completely on topic about, um, paper cups?
What was this thread about again?

Quote from: wendyw on April 08, 2010, 07:54:48 AM

Quote from: JGray on April 07, 2010, 06:52:20 AM
I am utterly stupified. I think this is the longest conversation on these forums. It this were TWCL it would have degenerated into babble by now.

Awesome.

Hey! What are you suggesting, huh?
That we can't stay on topic? That we get easily distracted? That we have the collective attention spam of a goldfish?


Of course not. We'd still be completely on topic about, um, paper cups?
What was this thread about again?

LOL :D

SHINY! :o

In my opinion not shaking hands with a fan,if they want to,makes you come across as smug and superior.In short if you don't shake hands your a dick,and if you say you don't shake hands because your afraid of germs you come across as obsessive compulsive.Posting that your usually sick for weeks after a con makes you seem like a huge wussy as well.I'm a fan and that brief contact with a creator or actor or whoever that I want to meet leaves a lasting impression.I shook hands with Peter Mayhew at a convention once and still talk about it.As a creator it's the same feeling knowing that I've touched someone on some level that they want that contact with me.It's 2 seconds and it's worth the risk.
Anyone attending heroescon in Charlotte,I'll be the guy with the Hainted Holler T-shirt,and anyone attending Interventioncon in Rockville I'm a special guest and I'll shake anyone's hand that want's it.Now if you'll excuse me I need to see where I can get some "Travis Surber shook MY hand you jerk" stickers made

Thanks Travis. Passionate response. I hope you took the survey. (http://www.webcomicscommunity.com/)  ;)

You'll come to find I am highly opinionated and passionate about those opinions.I'm a new creator who's only got 9 months under my belt but I made a vow day one to not be one of "those" creators.It's only a few seconds of my time but it leaves a lasting impression on those people I meet.If someone enjoys my work enough to want to interact with me in any way I OWE IT TO THEM, not the other way around.This sense of entitlement some creators have is just bullshit and those people made you and without them you are nothing.

Quote from Ryan Sohmer of LICD: (http://www.leasticoulddo.com/)
"Despite the inconveniences of travel (remember when going on an airplane was exciting?), I'm hugely looking forward to C2E2 (http://www.c2e2.com/).

Once again, our booth is #647 and Lar and I can't wait to shake your hands and shoot the shite.

We'll see you soon.

- Because I can."

Added the emphasis... just sayin'

I don't believe this is the most active topic on the forum.  ::)

I was at the C2E2 this weekend and met...well, not so met as saw...Scott Kurtz and watched him and the way he behaved. I'll keep the majority of my impression of him to myself for the time being, but I will say that what I postulated before seems now more likely to be true. I think he's probably prone to disease.

Yeah, I like to agree.  He does need to take better care of himself.

I was also at a convention this weekend (the Wizard World Anaheim Comic Con).  I've soften my stance a little since the last time I posted in this topic (if some people have a problem with shaking hands, then that's their problem and I won't let it bother me), but it was interesting to see an actor like Doug Jones (he's played the Silver Surfer, Abe Sapien, and others) getting out from behind his table and hugging his fans.

Personally, I think the norovirus is a very good reason to avoid handshakes...

Ever had it before? I have. It's absolutely terrible to have. It's not just your average vomiting and diarrhoea, it's easy to see how it kills people when you've had it. It was actually the worst type of ill I have ever been. Ever. We have warnings up in my college about norovirus, and despite the warnings, people still refuse to wash their hands, which is a habit that has always irked me... Then you get the norovirus and you almost want to punch everyone who has ever refused to wash their hands in the genitals, to prevent them from teaching their kids that hand washing is unimportant and diseases only happen to other people.

However, I would still shake hands. I would just, I dunno, clean them when nobody is looking. I have always been very meticulous about cleaning my hands, though. Maybe some antibacterial handwash in a bag, and just put my hands under the table or something, if I was sat at a booth. I'd probably go through a bottle of the stuff in a day.

Just wanted to add another thought to this topic... I went to my first con of the year this past weekend, and despite my stated ambivalence about handshaking earlier in the thread, I actually shook a lot of hands. I even initiated the handshake myself a fair portion of the time. Kind of surprised me. Mostly the hands I was shaking belonged to other creators; webcomics people and other guests of the con that I was meeting for the first time. I can't recall that I shook hands (nor did I decline to shake) with any "regular" attendees who bought things from my table. Just a heartfelt smile and a thank you.

Also, it seems that once you already know a webcomic creator, especially one that you only get to see in person a few times a year at most, handshakes are no longer used and instead you get hugs or claps on the back. Or maybe that was just a feature of Penguicon, which was definitely one of the more social non-anime cons I've been to in recent years.  :)

I'm glad to hear it was (or at least it sounded like) a positive experience for you. So the real question now after all that handshaking is.... did you get sick?
;)

EDIT: I forgot Randy of Something*Positive was there. He's one of my all time favorite webcomic people and one of the reasons I got into this. Did you get to say hi?

I shook a lot of hands at the C2E2, including Jim Mahfood's, and the only sickness I've heard of anyone getting after that con is a hangover. And as I've said before, I don't mind people being nervous of getting sick, but if you touch money, doorknobs, merchandise, or even a pen that's been handled by someone, you might as well shake their hand. At least some people wash their hands.

Quote from: Gibson on May 03, 2010, 03:19:10 PMif you touch money, doorknobs, merchandise, or even a pen that's been handled by someone, you might as well shake their hand. At least some people wash their hands.

This. And also bring some little sanitation wipes and use them before doing anything that involves bringing a hand near an orifice. Bam, no contact diseases.

I just came back from anime north, where I shook quite a few hands. I am sick as a dog--I have a crazy fever, I am coughing my lungs out, and I cannot breathe out of my nose. =/ it started on the last day of the convention, and is showing no signs of stopping. This is the worse thing ever.  :-X

You can never know if it was from shaking hands. You also saw people in poorly made costumes this weekend, it could have been that. Or maybe you've developed an allergy to nerds.

If I had a nerd allergy, I'd probably never be able to do a full shift at work. =P While I can't definitely say that it was from shaking hands, I can say that I did notice a lot of people sneezing everywhere and looking rather sick. What baffles me the most is that there are people out there who will go to a con, even if they are sick, because they don't want to miss it. If you are sick, please, for the love of everything sweet and good, stay home. My lungs will thank you for it.

So maybe the answer is, rather than refraining from shaking hands at cons, when we see or know of someone being sick at a con, punch that person in the face as hard as you can, then spit in their mouths and scream "How does it feel?"

Sorry to hear you are sick Ran. Hope you feel better.

I think paying for Con badges in advance probably goes along way to get people to come anyway if they are sick.

My sense of this is that you ultimately have a choice to make and it is either shake hands and maybe get sick or not shake hands and maybe not do as much business, maybe alienate some people. It's a choice. I never said one was necessarily better than the other. If you get sick every con and can't work on your strip for a week after it doesn't serve much good to shake hands as you will ultimately alienate more people (I believe) by not updating your comic on time.

My best friend is a paranoid germaphobe to the point he won't even touch door knobs or handles with his bare skin. He's also the sickest person I know since he adopted this policy. The human body is designed to fight infection. The way it generally does this is by taking on germs, kicking their asses and adding an immunity to other germs of that nature. If, however, the body doesn't get germs to fight and beat down on occasion, it cannot form immunity and becomes weaker overall.

So I say shake, rock some vitamin C and enjoy life.

I think this is probably a different question for most of us here than it is for Scott Kurtz as well. Kurtz is on a level in our industry that takes a lot more than a few pissed off acne queens at a convention to affect much. In fact, I suspect making it a public thing that he wouldn't shake hands made more of a stink than just telling people at the con that he wasn't shaking hands ever would have done.

For someone at Ran's or my level, where we have a certain level of fame but are still gouging and scraping for our audience, pissing a few people off could have actual ramifications. Conversely, where us shaking those hands and kissing those babies could build our stock quite a bit, Scott Kurtz could tongue someone's taint and it would barely make a blip.

I still maintain that simply talking to one of these plague rats and letting them cough their malaria into your face is more dangerous than shaking their hands. No doubt, Ran got sick from some Naruto fanboy without the good sense to brush the hair on his palms, and that little fucker should be horsewhipped with a horsewhip, but that's the industry we chose. Ran, whenever we show up at the same con, the Purell's on me.

Quote from: Gibson on June 04, 2010, 11:56:11 PM
Scott Kurtz could tongue someone's taint and it would barely make a blip.

You're eloquence Sir; it knows no boundaries.  :o

I'm hoping to go to some of the more webcomic friendly American cons when I get my passport/name change shit figured out, so the odds of us being at the same con will probably go up after I get that done. Oddly enough, I totally intended to bring some purell this time around and left it sitting in my keys drawer. =/ It was the ONLY thing I forgot. Aargh.

Haha, I've always had a pretty good constitution when it comes to getting sick.  I usually only catch a bug once every 2 or 3 years.  Not too sure if I would be too worried about it as much as you guys are.  I went to the Calgary Con not long ago and I came out unscathed. :)  Lucky me?

Quote from: ran on June 05, 2010, 11:51:19 AM
I'm hoping to go to some of the more webcomic friendly American cons

The C2E2 in Chicago was pretty webcomic friendly and large enough to make it worth the effort to get there. A big amount of the dealers area was devoted to them, as well as a few different panels. Sure, they were fairly Kurtz-centric, but hopefully it won't be quite that bad next year. This was its first year and it was pretty well-received, so I'm sure next year will be even bigger. I suspect we'll have a booth reserved fairly early for it.

Quote from: mcfadyn on June 05, 2010, 03:18:33 PM
I went to the Calgary Con not long ago and I came out unscathed. :)  Lucky me?

Cowboys don't hold with germs. Real men drink bacteria for breakfast.

Yeah, Gibson.  We'll have to chill next year in Calgary.  Drop me a line if you're getting a booth or something.

AND yes, REAL men don't worry about colds, they worry about concurring nations!

Quote from: Gibson on June 05, 2010, 07:20:38 PM


Cowboys don't hold with germs. Real men drink bacteria for breakfast.

I dunno about bacteria, but I did get some questionable milk once, does that count?

Quote from: mcfadyn on June 05, 2010, 11:19:41 PM
AND yes, REAL men don't worry about colds, they worry about concurring nations!

Concurring or conquering?

heh.  the latter.  my bad

Quote from: Gibson on June 05, 2010, 07:20:38 PM
Real men drink bacteria for breakfast.

So probiotic drinks are manly?

They sure are! You have to be really comfortable with your masculinity to drink them.

Quote from: Gibson on June 07, 2010, 09:07:40 AM
They sure are! You have to be really comfortable with your masculinity to drink them.

Or in serious need of intestinal regulation.

Quote from: Cary on June 07, 2010, 12:51:04 PM

Quote from: Gibson on June 07, 2010, 09:07:40 AM
They sure are! You have to be really comfortable with your masculinity to drink them.

Or in serious need of intestinal regulation.

It can be both

This being one of the more popular threads, it's little wonder that handshakes are a hot topic for the radio as well. Here's a link to June 18th's local Edmonton radio station's GAS 2 Go podcast entitled Handshakes and Bumper Stickers (http://blog.rogersbroadcasting.com/gas/2010/06/18/handshakes-and-bumper-stickers/).

-tony

Another Edmonton boy huh?  Just friggin' FANTASTIC :P